Muscle recovery time post 12 months ADT

@climateguy Ack is right! Did they say if the guy on ADT had done any exercise at all? Dr Newton needs to get permission from the author to incorporate this picture in his presentations, and every MO needs to have an enlarged copy of this in their office.

@carlsbadguy

Yes, I also wonder if that person on ADT was exercising and adjusted food intake.

My husband actually lost some weigh and even gained some muscle after starting intensive training upon starting taking ADT 2 months ago.

And not only that - his blood work that came yesterday was BETTER than before ADT on all tests involved. His metabolic tests were always good (all in green (normal) range, but now came even better inclooding his kidney function (BUN) since he now makes sure to stay always hydrated. I was laughing and said that he is the only man that I found here that has positive effect of ADT lol

Joking to the side - ADT effects can be mitigated with proper diet and exercise, it is just that nobody ever took time to look into that or make any program for ADT patients which is really shame. Patients should be offered insurance paid PT sessions and paid consultations with nutritionist etc., and not just be told "do some resistance exercises" . HOW, WHERE, WHICH ONES , HOW MANY , WHAT EQUIPMENT , WHAT NUTRITION - those are all important factors for successfully and truly managing ADT side effects.

@surftohealth88

Hard to imagine that he was doing any type of consistent resistance training. I have also lost a bit of weight since I started Orgovyx 34 days ago, I was concerned it was all muscle mass, but my wife reminded me how many fewer calories I am consuming every day, and how much more I am exercising. On Friday I'm having CMP, PSA and Testosterone blood work done, so I'll see how the ADT has affected my blood. I've gotten plenty of nutritional info from my cancer team, but zero real exercise guidance. This is something that I feel is glaringly lacking from the medical oncologists who prescribe ADT.

I had my consult yesterday with the Doctor who will be placing the SpaceOAR and fiducial markers next week, followed the next day by my sim. Great doctor and nurses, high volume with this procedure, been doing it for 10 years, explained the entire procedure in detail, with visual aids :-). I'm not looking forward to it, but will be happy to have it done and over with. I'm due to start 28 fractions of proton radiation 2 weeks later.

@surftohealth88

Hard to imagine that he was doing any type of consistent resistance training. I have also lost a bit of weight since I started Orgovyx 34 days ago, I was concerned it was all muscle mass, but my wife reminded me how many fewer calories I am consuming every day, and how much more I am exercising. On Friday I'm having CMP, PSA and Testosterone blood work done, so I'll see how the ADT has affected my blood. I've gotten plenty of nutritional info from my cancer team, but zero real exercise guidance. This is something that I feel is glaringly lacking from the medical oncologists who prescribe ADT.

I had my consult yesterday with the Doctor who will be placing the SpaceOAR and fiducial markers next week, followed the next day by my sim. Great doctor and nurses, high volume with this procedure, been doing it for 10 years, explained the entire procedure in detail, with visual aids :-). I'm not looking forward to it, but will be happy to have it done and over with. I'm due to start 28 fractions of proton radiation 2 weeks later.

@carlsbadguy
Thanks so much for posting this since it is important for future patients to see and know that the most ADT side effects can be mitigated with regular and correct exercise (every day !) and with correct diet. Of course, it all also depends of the starting point too because if multiple health issues are present before PC diagnosis than following intensive exercise can be difficult, but that does not mean that even lower levels of exercise will not help. To the contrary.

As you said - one knows if one lost muscle or fat. If your pants fit better and you can move a notch on your pants - you lost fat. If you can lift more and more weight every week - you developed new muscle strands ; ). And if you brake a door handle by accident - you definitely got stronger ( I am joking since it happened to my husband 2 days ago ha ha, I was like "honey, be gentle with doors from now on " lol . )

Mr. Surf started his salvage RT yesterday - it was "non event" by all means. He came home smiling and full of stories of whom he met, what jokes were said in the waiting room, etc. His RO came to say hello and even gave him a book to read, one that you like ( we have it but my husband was polite and took it, of course). The zapping was 10 min total and he than went to nice coffee shop to relax and eat something and came home happy. He is having VMRT which is similar to IMRT, don't ask me the difference 🤪, I am useless in that area. It is open machine - actually table with half cylinder that makes 4 circles around body and that is it. You lay down, they adjust you, machine activates zooom zoooom zoooom zooom, and you are done. 👍 Next week he will start going to the hospital gym after treatment since I read that it can enhance RT effect on cancer cells.

I hope that this description eased your mind somewhat - I think that after you are done with fiducial markers insertion and SpaceOR that you will be able to relax. The first day of anything is always little bit stressful but after you actually see how simple all is, you will be able to relax.

Keep us posted and good luck 🍀 : )))

@surftohealth88

"Next week he will start going to the hospital gym after treatment since I read that it can enhance RT effect on cancer cells."

Actually Dr Newton recommends 10-20 minutes of exercise shortly before radiation, both in his 2025 PCRI presentation as well as his book. It gets blood and oxygen flowing to the tumor which helps with the radiation. Not sure how easily I could work in a 20 minute workout prior to my treatment, with a full bladder no less, but will do everything I can to keep up my present routine.

Thank you for the kind and reassuring words, I will certainly feel better after next week, hopefully the actual treatments will be as much of a "non event" as Mr Surf's was.

@carlsbadguy
Yes, I found info about exercise and RT in several places. In some papers it was suggested that exercise in general helps with RT results regardless of the timing. What is important is to help blood get extra oxygenated so it provides oxidative stress to cells. I also found out information about blood actual levels of oxygen after exercise and to my surprise blood stays extra oxygenated for several hours or more, even for the whole day (depending of intensity of exercise). Since cancer cells continue to die off for days and even months after RT is finished, I think that having extra oxygen at any point is beneficial, and if oxygenation last for 24 hours than even exercising day before has benefits.
Also, as you said yourself, doing that level of exercise with overfull bladder is really almost impossible for most people. I mean, I would not be able to do that and neither can my husband - bladder is full to the point of discomfort even when one just sits or is lying down 😬.
If you can, by all means follow advice form your book, but if not, it is comforting yo know that exercising at any point has benefits and helps with oxygenation, hormone distribution, immunity boosting etc etc. 👍

@carlsbadguy

Yes, I also wonder if that person on ADT was exercising and adjusted food intake.

My husband actually lost some weigh and even gained some muscle after starting intensive training upon starting taking ADT 2 months ago.

And not only that - his blood work that came yesterday was BETTER than before ADT on all tests involved. His metabolic tests were always good (all in green (normal) range, but now came even better inclooding his kidney function (BUN) since he now makes sure to stay always hydrated. I was laughing and said that he is the only man that I found here that has positive effect of ADT lol

Joking to the side - ADT effects can be mitigated with proper diet and exercise, it is just that nobody ever took time to look into that or make any program for ADT patients which is really shame. Patients should be offered insurance paid PT sessions and paid consultations with nutritionist etc., and not just be told "do some resistance exercises" . HOW, WHERE, WHICH ONES , HOW MANY , WHAT EQUIPMENT , WHAT NUTRITION - those are all important factors for successfully and truly managing ADT side effects.

@carlsbadguy
Thanks so much for posting this since it is important for future patients to see and know that the most ADT side effects can be mitigated with regular and correct exercise (every day !) and with correct diet. Of course, it all also depends of the starting point too because if multiple health issues are present before PC diagnosis than following intensive exercise can be difficult, but that does not mean that even lower levels of exercise will not help. To the contrary.

As you said - one knows if one lost muscle or fat. If your pants fit better and you can move a notch on your pants - you lost fat. If you can lift more and more weight every week - you developed new muscle strands ; ). And if you brake a door handle by accident - you definitely got stronger ( I am joking since it happened to my husband 2 days ago ha ha, I was like "honey, be gentle with doors from now on " lol . )

Mr. Surf started his salvage RT yesterday - it was "non event" by all means. He came home smiling and full of stories of whom he met, what jokes were said in the waiting room, etc. His RO came to say hello and even gave him a book to read, one that you like ( we have it but my husband was polite and took it, of course). The zapping was 10 min total and he than went to nice coffee shop to relax and eat something and came home happy. He is having VMRT which is similar to IMRT, don't ask me the difference 🤪, I am useless in that area. It is open machine - actually table with half cylinder that makes 4 circles around body and that is it. You lay down, they adjust you, machine activates zooom zoooom zoooom zooom, and you are done. 👍 Next week he will start going to the hospital gym after treatment since I read that it can enhance RT effect on cancer cells.

I hope that this description eased your mind somewhat - I think that after you are done with fiducial markers insertion and SpaceOR that you will be able to relax. The first day of anything is always little bit stressful but after you actually see how simple all is, you will be able to relax.

Keep us posted and good luck 🍀 : )))

I am so sorry to hear that : (. You said that you maintained status quo but you also stated that you lost a lot of muscle so it is little bit contradictory but it is not important - the important fact is that you lost muscle : (.

To maintain muscle one really has to push them to work so perhaps resistance level that you used was not enough. Can you find personal trainer or ask to get referral for PT sessions where somebody will show you what you need to do ? Some weight training would be very beneficial as well as lot of exercising of a lower body with deep squats holding weights, bicycling with high resistance mode, Nordic Track machine etc. Some people however have physical limitations so having professional trainer help you would be probably very helpful. My husband exercises every day, perhaps you need to up the amount of exercise.

Also - you must have adequate amount of good quality protein in your daily food intake (chicken, fish , turkey) and added protein shake (whey protein or soy protein powder , no additives, gums, color or artificial aroma - please do not buy prepacked " Ensure" or similar).

Wrinkles- eat a lot of fresh fruits and veggies and take antioxidant vitamins and stay very hydrated. If you wrinkles are now mostly on your arms and legs, that is because you lost muscle mass : ( and you now have skin that is somewhat loose. As soon as you regain muscle wrinkles will be gone. Also skin has ability to "shrink" and adjust to new dimensions but it goes much slower with age. To help skin you need to stay very hydrated and also choose a body cream that you like (or any natural oil) and apply it every day.

Don't give up - this can definitely be improved , you just need proper nutritional and exercise program and perseverance 👍