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Muscle recovery time post 12 months ADT

Posted by geneva26 @geneva26, Jul 23 8:39am

I am currently on my 10 month of Orgovyx and have noticed a significant reduction in the circumference of my arms and legs plus noticeable amount of wrinkled skin. I do resistance training 3 times a week and have been able to maintain the status quo. Has anyone else experienced this? Any idea how long if ever the wrinkles may be less noticeable? I am 77.

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Profile picture for carlsbadguy
carlsbadguy | @carlsbadguy | Jul 24 5:13pm
In reply to @climateguy "Now that I'm 7 months into taking Orgovyx, I've noticed a slight but noticeable increase in..." + (show)
Profile picture for climateguy @climateguy

Now that I'm 7 months into taking Orgovyx, I've noticed a slight but noticeable increase in my lower and upper body muscle size. I do 30 minutes of cardio 3 times a week, every other day, and on alternate days, approximately 50 minutes of resistance training 3 times a week. I take Sundays off.

That article surftohealth88 posted above has a section entitled "Exercise intervention program" where they describe exactly what they got their patients to do. They measured the maximum resistance for each patient could perform for each upper and lower body exercise, they call this the 1RM or one repetition maximum, then they designed a program for each patient consisting of sets of 10 reps of each of those exercises starting at 60% of that resistance, ramping the % up and back down so they could gather data. 2 sessions a week, 60 minutes total.

If your exercise program is something similar to what the cited article describes and you are not experiencing results, it is possible you could improve the situation.

The exercise oncologist I studied, Dr. Robert Newton, has been researching how to use exercise to help prostate cancer patients for decades.

The way he suggests, using a pin loaded machine for instance, is to set a resistance light enough so you can perform at least 6 reps, but heavy enough so by the time you've performed 12 reps you feel like you could only do 1 or 2 more before it simply would not be possible to continue. As time goes by and doing 12 reps is getting too easy, increase the resistance by 5 or 10%, making sure you can still do at least 6 reps. He suggests a routine including chest press, seated row, lat pulldown, leg press, leg extension, and leg curl.

I add a biceps curl machine, glute drive machine, and ab/aduction machine to that. It takes me 50 minutes to do my resistance routine. I keep a chart showing what resistance I set each exercise machine for the last time I used it, and as it gets easier to achieve 12 reps, I keep upping the resistance as Newton suggests.

His clinic uses machines that can be programmed to offer a different amount of resistance to each phase of an exercise, i.e. less for the concentric than for the eccentric phase. His research has indicated that this is the most effective way for a patient on ADT to gain muscle mass, i.e. to exercise on machines capable of doing this.

My gym has nothing like this. What I do to partially simulate this is to take 4 or more times longer to perform the eccentric phase of an exercise than when performing the concentric phase. I may not even understand what I'm doing here, but the way I figured it, for instance, during a leg extension, I quickly raise the legs straight out, then take much longer to lower the legs down. A biceps curl is quickly contract the muscles to lift against the resistance, then slowly straighten my arms out. This is my understanding of what Newton suggests. YMMV.

I experienced what exercise experts call DOMS, i.e. delayed onset muscle soreness, which sometimes was especially intense when I started out. Newton says this is not something to try to avoid. It can be a signal there is a problem you need to consult an expert about, but it is also the signal you're doing the right thing. I backed off a bit if the DOMS was severe, but I took it as a signal to slow down the rate of increase in exercise intensity, not as a signal I needed to reduce.

Newton has a book MyExerciseMedicine for Cancer.

He published a short article explaining his views: Prostate cancer treatment with
exercise medicine" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/tre.884

Newton, et.al. 2012 "Can exercise ameliorate treatment toxicity during the initial phase of testosterone deprivation in prostate cancer patients?” has a section "Exercise intervention" that describes exactly what he had the patients he was studying do. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3519595/

Newton has researched how to preserve bone health during ADT as well. He published "Exercise Mode Specificity for Preserving Spine and Hip Bone Mineral Density in Prostate Cancer Patients". I found the whole article which describes what the patients he studied were required to do, but any link I found just now is only to the abstract. Maybe I sent in a special request for access or something.

Jump to this post

@climateguy great explanation of Dr Newton's remarkable work tying his exercise medicine to prostate cancer treatment and recovery. I am just in my second of 18 months of Orgovyx, I start radiation Aug 17. I bought Dr Newton's book after listening to his talk at the 2025 PCRI conference on YouTube. I'm 73, had not been in a gym for 30+ years, but I joined a local gym, and am working with a great young trainer who understands what I am going through and want to accomplish. You talk about reps, but you didn't mention how many sets of each of your resistance exercises you do. My trainer also added a bicep curl, and has me doing some core work. I'd love to be able to get everything finished in an hour, but he has me doing 3 sets of each, and I can't come close getting them all done in a 50 minute session with him.

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climateguy | @climateguy | Jul 24 6:53pm
In reply to @carlsbadguy "@climateguy great explanation of Dr Newton's remarkable work tying his exercise medicine to prostate cancer treatment..." + (show)
Profile picture for carlsbadguy @carlsbadguy

@climateguy great explanation of Dr Newton's remarkable work tying his exercise medicine to prostate cancer treatment and recovery. I am just in my second of 18 months of Orgovyx, I start radiation Aug 17. I bought Dr Newton's book after listening to his talk at the 2025 PCRI conference on YouTube. I'm 73, had not been in a gym for 30+ years, but I joined a local gym, and am working with a great young trainer who understands what I am going through and want to accomplish. You talk about reps, but you didn't mention how many sets of each of your resistance exercises you do. My trainer also added a bicep curl, and has me doing some core work. I'd love to be able to get everything finished in an hour, but he has me doing 3 sets of each, and I can't come close getting them all done in a 50 minute session with him.

Jump to this post

@carlsbadguy

I'm doing 2 sets of 6 to 12 reps of each resistance exercise. My 50 minute routine is what I've evolved over time. It took a lot longer when I first started - maybe 1 1/2 hours or even more. The cardio days are only 30 minutes.

Since I've never done resistance training before, this whole gym thing was a new world for me. I have a chart I can keep in my breast pocket to keep track of each daily session which helps me set up each machine each time I use it. By now I am very familiar with the particular gym and where each machine is. I can set them up very fast.

I speed up completing the program each day by doing a set, say 11 reps on one machine, eg. the leg press, then instead of resting for whatever, 1 to 3 minutes before repeating the set, I immediately move to a machine exercising a different muscle group, eg, chest press and do 12 reps or so there. By the time I complete that set, my leg muscles are ready for the 2nd set and I go back to the leg press.

I record how many reps and how much resistance I set each machine for on my chart which is accessible in my breast pocket, which helps speed setting up the next day, or if someone occupies the machine and changes the settings before I get back to do the second set I can refer to what my settings were.

By moving between upper body and lower body machines I can save the time I would be resting between sets if I stayed on the same machine .

I had a trainer introduce me to how to use each machine the first time I went to the gym and after that I learned on my own. I'm too cheap to hire someone regularly, and I am disciplined and motivated enough to show up regularly without having to hire someone to help me with that.

I have no idea if this routine I've evolved is the best or more efficient for what I want to do.

Newton is sympathetic to anyone who wants to do less time each day. Mark Moyad from PCRI recorded Newton at one of the PCRI conferences and put him on the spot as to what exercises and how much time a PCa patient otherwise in good health needs to do in order to get the benefits Newton claims.

Moyad's exchange with Newton is around minute 52 or 53 of this podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch

"The Power Of Exercise For Prostate Cancer"

[ Moyad sets up his question by saying here is a paper you’ve published Dr Newton, and it says a patient has to do 6 exercises, chest press, seated row, lat pull down, leg press, leg extension, leg curl, 2 or 3 sets each day at the gym, 2 or 3 visits to the gym a week, and that’s it? ]

Moyad: ”…; [you claim] men on androgen deprivation if they did aerobic exercise and just lifted a few times a week and if they did just these six exercises. [They could counteract just about all the side effects of ADT] ...you're just doing a couple exercises lower body below the belt. You're doing another two or three above the belt. So you're doing legs and arms and chest. This is very simple. This would probably take me 30 minutes… ...Right. and you're seeing this dramatic effect and the reduction of side effects. And so my question is when you recommend the amount of lifting, is this something as simple as this? They just have to do these six a couple times a week to get these benefits?

Newton: “First off, um we've had too much of an emphasis on cardio exercise, cardiorespiratory, aerobic exercise. So, getting out for long walks and things like that is still important, but we have to emphasize resistance training more. One of the major factors we face with cancer is loss of muscle mass. All right, now as we've seen, our muscle mass is our drugstore. If you have a small drugstore, you can't produce a lot of medicine. You want a big Walgreens. ... Look, [referring to the 6 exercise program ] .... As an overall prescription though, in general, generic, its very good and it works... ...I like it... because it's quick…

[ referring to types who spend an hour or two in the gym each session - "I don’t have time for that" ].

So Newton is very sympathetic to patients who don't have a lot of time. I'm a motivated fanatic at the moment, and I figure 3 times @ 50 or 60 minutes a week compared to Newton's 3 times @ 30 or so minutes a week isn't much of a difference, and so far, I've got time for that.

REPLY
1 reply
Profile picture for jime51
jime51 | @jime51 | 6 days ago
In reply to @climateguy "Now that I'm 7 months into taking Orgovyx, I've noticed a slight but noticeable increase in..." + (show)
Profile picture for climateguy @climateguy

Now that I'm 7 months into taking Orgovyx, I've noticed a slight but noticeable increase in my lower and upper body muscle size. I do 30 minutes of cardio 3 times a week, every other day, and on alternate days, approximately 50 minutes of resistance training 3 times a week. I take Sundays off.

That article surftohealth88 posted above has a section entitled "Exercise intervention program" where they describe exactly what they got their patients to do. They measured the maximum resistance for each patient could perform for each upper and lower body exercise, they call this the 1RM or one repetition maximum, then they designed a program for each patient consisting of sets of 10 reps of each of those exercises starting at 60% of that resistance, ramping the % up and back down so they could gather data. 2 sessions a week, 60 minutes total.

If your exercise program is something similar to what the cited article describes and you are not experiencing results, it is possible you could improve the situation.

The exercise oncologist I studied, Dr. Robert Newton, has been researching how to use exercise to help prostate cancer patients for decades.

The way he suggests, using a pin loaded machine for instance, is to set a resistance light enough so you can perform at least 6 reps, but heavy enough so by the time you've performed 12 reps you feel like you could only do 1 or 2 more before it simply would not be possible to continue. As time goes by and doing 12 reps is getting too easy, increase the resistance by 5 or 10%, making sure you can still do at least 6 reps. He suggests a routine including chest press, seated row, lat pulldown, leg press, leg extension, and leg curl.

I add a biceps curl machine, glute drive machine, and ab/aduction machine to that. It takes me 50 minutes to do my resistance routine. I keep a chart showing what resistance I set each exercise machine for the last time I used it, and as it gets easier to achieve 12 reps, I keep upping the resistance as Newton suggests.

His clinic uses machines that can be programmed to offer a different amount of resistance to each phase of an exercise, i.e. less for the concentric than for the eccentric phase. His research has indicated that this is the most effective way for a patient on ADT to gain muscle mass, i.e. to exercise on machines capable of doing this.

My gym has nothing like this. What I do to partially simulate this is to take 4 or more times longer to perform the eccentric phase of an exercise than when performing the concentric phase. I may not even understand what I'm doing here, but the way I figured it, for instance, during a leg extension, I quickly raise the legs straight out, then take much longer to lower the legs down. A biceps curl is quickly contract the muscles to lift against the resistance, then slowly straighten my arms out. This is my understanding of what Newton suggests. YMMV.

I experienced what exercise experts call DOMS, i.e. delayed onset muscle soreness, which sometimes was especially intense when I started out. Newton says this is not something to try to avoid. It can be a signal there is a problem you need to consult an expert about, but it is also the signal you're doing the right thing. I backed off a bit if the DOMS was severe, but I took it as a signal to slow down the rate of increase in exercise intensity, not as a signal I needed to reduce.

Newton has a book MyExerciseMedicine for Cancer.

He published a short article explaining his views: Prostate cancer treatment with
exercise medicine" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/tre.884

Newton, et.al. 2012 "Can exercise ameliorate treatment toxicity during the initial phase of testosterone deprivation in prostate cancer patients?” has a section "Exercise intervention" that describes exactly what he had the patients he was studying do. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3519595/

Newton has researched how to preserve bone health during ADT as well. He published "Exercise Mode Specificity for Preserving Spine and Hip Bone Mineral Density in Prostate Cancer Patients". I found the whole article which describes what the patients he studied were required to do, but any link I found just now is only to the abstract. Maybe I sent in a special request for access or something.

Jump to this post

@climateguy Thank you! I saw his http://www.pcri.org presentation and use his six basic exercises twice weekly for 30 minutes. I had done little or no resistance training previously, and these have been helpful. I have made only incremental progress during treatment. I am now one month post-Orgovyx and hope to see increasing results.

REPLY
Profile picture for carlsbadguy
carlsbadguy | @carlsbadguy | 6 days ago
In reply to @climateguy "@carlsbadguy I'm doing 2 sets of 6 to 12 reps of each resistance exercise. My 50..." + (show)
Profile picture for climateguy @climateguy

@carlsbadguy

I'm doing 2 sets of 6 to 12 reps of each resistance exercise. My 50 minute routine is what I've evolved over time. It took a lot longer when I first started - maybe 1 1/2 hours or even more. The cardio days are only 30 minutes.

Since I've never done resistance training before, this whole gym thing was a new world for me. I have a chart I can keep in my breast pocket to keep track of each daily session which helps me set up each machine each time I use it. By now I am very familiar with the particular gym and where each machine is. I can set them up very fast.

I speed up completing the program each day by doing a set, say 11 reps on one machine, eg. the leg press, then instead of resting for whatever, 1 to 3 minutes before repeating the set, I immediately move to a machine exercising a different muscle group, eg, chest press and do 12 reps or so there. By the time I complete that set, my leg muscles are ready for the 2nd set and I go back to the leg press.

I record how many reps and how much resistance I set each machine for on my chart which is accessible in my breast pocket, which helps speed setting up the next day, or if someone occupies the machine and changes the settings before I get back to do the second set I can refer to what my settings were.

By moving between upper body and lower body machines I can save the time I would be resting between sets if I stayed on the same machine .

I had a trainer introduce me to how to use each machine the first time I went to the gym and after that I learned on my own. I'm too cheap to hire someone regularly, and I am disciplined and motivated enough to show up regularly without having to hire someone to help me with that.

I have no idea if this routine I've evolved is the best or more efficient for what I want to do.

Newton is sympathetic to anyone who wants to do less time each day. Mark Moyad from PCRI recorded Newton at one of the PCRI conferences and put him on the spot as to what exercises and how much time a PCa patient otherwise in good health needs to do in order to get the benefits Newton claims.

Moyad's exchange with Newton is around minute 52 or 53 of this podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch

"The Power Of Exercise For Prostate Cancer"

[ Moyad sets up his question by saying here is a paper you’ve published Dr Newton, and it says a patient has to do 6 exercises, chest press, seated row, lat pull down, leg press, leg extension, leg curl, 2 or 3 sets each day at the gym, 2 or 3 visits to the gym a week, and that’s it? ]

Moyad: ”…; [you claim] men on androgen deprivation if they did aerobic exercise and just lifted a few times a week and if they did just these six exercises. [They could counteract just about all the side effects of ADT] ...you're just doing a couple exercises lower body below the belt. You're doing another two or three above the belt. So you're doing legs and arms and chest. This is very simple. This would probably take me 30 minutes… ...Right. and you're seeing this dramatic effect and the reduction of side effects. And so my question is when you recommend the amount of lifting, is this something as simple as this? They just have to do these six a couple times a week to get these benefits?

Newton: “First off, um we've had too much of an emphasis on cardio exercise, cardiorespiratory, aerobic exercise. So, getting out for long walks and things like that is still important, but we have to emphasize resistance training more. One of the major factors we face with cancer is loss of muscle mass. All right, now as we've seen, our muscle mass is our drugstore. If you have a small drugstore, you can't produce a lot of medicine. You want a big Walgreens. ... Look, [referring to the 6 exercise program ] .... As an overall prescription though, in general, generic, its very good and it works... ...I like it... because it's quick…

[ referring to types who spend an hour or two in the gym each session - "I don’t have time for that" ].

So Newton is very sympathetic to patients who don't have a lot of time. I'm a motivated fanatic at the moment, and I figure 3 times @ 50 or 60 minutes a week compared to Newton's 3 times @ 30 or so minutes a week isn't much of a difference, and so far, I've got time for that.

Jump to this post

@climateguy thank you for your detailed info. I have a great gym less than 5 minutes from my house, went in fully prepared to sign and pay for me and my wife's membership, a year in advance, and found out my Medicare Supplemental plan covers my membership. I've watched Dr Newton's PCRI video twice, bought and read his book, rereading a lot of pages I highlighted, and listened to his Q and A with Dr Moyad 3 or 4 times. When I signed up for the gym they were offering a special of 4 or 8 sessions with a trainer for great price, less than what 6 months of dues would have cost. So I'm working with him closely to get into an easy to follow routine. I love your clipboard/checklist, I'm guessing by your weights you're a bit younger, if not, certainly stronger than me. I'm trying to keep all of my info on my phone and sometimes struggle. I've been lifting twice a week and doing cardio 3 sometimes 4 days for 45 minutes. I think you have a great routine, one that will prove to be very beneficial. Thank you again.

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1 reply
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climateguy | @climateguy | 6 days ago
In reply to @carlsbadguy "@climateguy thank you for your detailed info. I have a great gym less than 5 minutes..." + (show)
Profile picture for carlsbadguy @carlsbadguy

@climateguy thank you for your detailed info. I have a great gym less than 5 minutes from my house, went in fully prepared to sign and pay for me and my wife's membership, a year in advance, and found out my Medicare Supplemental plan covers my membership. I've watched Dr Newton's PCRI video twice, bought and read his book, rereading a lot of pages I highlighted, and listened to his Q and A with Dr Moyad 3 or 4 times. When I signed up for the gym they were offering a special of 4 or 8 sessions with a trainer for great price, less than what 6 months of dues would have cost. So I'm working with him closely to get into an easy to follow routine. I love your clipboard/checklist, I'm guessing by your weights you're a bit younger, if not, certainly stronger than me. I'm trying to keep all of my info on my phone and sometimes struggle. I've been lifting twice a week and doing cardio 3 sometimes 4 days for 45 minutes. I think you have a great routine, one that will prove to be very beneficial. Thank you again.

Jump to this post

@carlsbadguy I'm 76. My Medicare supplement plan subsidizes my gym fee as well. Silver&Fit.

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Profile picture for carlsbadguy
carlsbadguy | @carlsbadguy | 6 days ago

@climateguy Ha, missed on that, glad you’re knocking it out. I should have had a clue with that awesome analog clipboard and list. I actually ordered a small clipboard, paper and 4in pencils from Amazon today. Tried keeping tract on my phone, way too complicated.

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1 reply
Profile picture for climateguy
climateguy | @climateguy | 4 days ago
In reply to @carlsbadguy "@climateguy Ha, missed on that, glad you’re knocking it out. I should have had a clue..." + (show)
Profile picture for carlsbadguy @carlsbadguy

@climateguy Ha, missed on that, glad you’re knocking it out. I should have had a clue with that awesome analog clipboard and list. I actually ordered a small clipboard, paper and 4in pencils from Amazon today. Tried keeping tract on my phone, way too complicated.

Jump to this post

@carlsbadguy Ack! Check out the attached photo. It is a photo of two identical twins. One has been on ADT for 1 year, the other has not.

This photo was presented by Dr. Nicholas Zaorsky in a video entitled "Optimal ADT Duration with Definitive Radiotherapy for Prostate Cancer".

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2 replies
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carlsbadguy | @carlsbadguy | 4 days ago
In reply to @climateguy "@carlsbadguy Ack! Check out the attached photo. It is a photo of two identical twins. One..." + (show)
Profile picture for climateguy @climateguy

@carlsbadguy Ack! Check out the attached photo. It is a photo of two identical twins. One has been on ADT for 1 year, the other has not.

This photo was presented by Dr. Nicholas Zaorsky in a video entitled "Optimal ADT Duration with Definitive Radiotherapy for Prostate Cancer".

Jump to this post

@climateguy Ack is right! Did they say if the guy on ADT had done any exercise at all? Dr Newton needs to get permission from the author to incorporate this picture in his presentations, and every MO needs to have an enlarged copy of this in their office.

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1 reply
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pesquallie | @pesquallie | 3 days ago
In reply to @climateguy "@carlsbadguy Ack! Check out the attached photo. It is a photo of two identical twins. One..." + (show)
Profile picture for climateguy @climateguy

@carlsbadguy Ack! Check out the attached photo. It is a photo of two identical twins. One has been on ADT for 1 year, the other has not.

This photo was presented by Dr. Nicholas Zaorsky in a video entitled "Optimal ADT Duration with Definitive Radiotherapy for Prostate Cancer".

Jump to this post

@climateguy

Latest studies show that low testosterone may actually increase cancer risk while normal or higher testosterone may reduce cancer risk. The use of ADT is now beginning to look like it causes more harm than good.

For Advanced Prostate Cancer: Immunotherapy and… Testosterone? | Johns Hopkins Medicine

ISSM International Society for Sexual Medicine - Dr. Mohit Khera (Baylor College of Medicine) and Dr. Gerald Brock (Western U. London) explain the evolving view on testosterone and prostate cancer, noting a shift from seeing testosterone as harmful to recognizing potential therapeutic or preventive roles. Low testosterone is linked to higher risk of high-grade cancer, recurrence, and poorer erectile recovery. 3/28/25

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surftohealth88 | @surftohealth88 | 3 days ago
In reply to @pesquallie "@climateguy Latest studies show that low testosterone may actually increase cancer risk while normal or higher..." + (show)
Profile picture for pesquallie @pesquallie

@climateguy

Latest studies show that low testosterone may actually increase cancer risk while normal or higher testosterone may reduce cancer risk. The use of ADT is now beginning to look like it causes more harm than good.

For Advanced Prostate Cancer: Immunotherapy and… Testosterone? | Johns Hopkins Medicine

ISSM International Society for Sexual Medicine - Dr. Mohit Khera (Baylor College of Medicine) and Dr. Gerald Brock (Western U. London) explain the evolving view on testosterone and prostate cancer, noting a shift from seeing testosterone as harmful to recognizing potential therapeutic or preventive roles. Low testosterone is linked to higher risk of high-grade cancer, recurrence, and poorer erectile recovery. 3/28/25

Jump to this post

@pesquallie
This is ONLY in the context of advanced cancer and after person was on a ADT for prolonged period of the time. Adding high testosterone in that case can shock the cancer - this has nothing to do with initial treatments for PC .

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