Vivaer nasal valve remodeling and Empty Nose Syndrome?

Posted by warpedtrekker @warpedtrekker, Nov 21, 2018

Has anyone had Vivaer procedure? I'm concerned about Empty Nose Syndrome but my doctor claims that only occurs with removing or shrinking turbinates. Doesn't the vivaer procedure also affect turbinates?

@pastore

Has anyone had symptoms after turbinate reduction surgery that despite having clear nasal passages included feelings of nasal obstruction, dry empty air, not being able to take and feel a deep breath, a sensation of being unable to breathe with nasal and facial pain, an inability to fall and stay asleep and being jolted awake due to lack of airflow, and being constantly distracted by a sense that you are not getting enough air? Have you been treated for this condition and found relief and if so, by whom and what was done to correct the problem? I am in a constant state of hell and need help!

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Not a medical professional -disclaimer. Sounds like you have Empty Nose Syndrome (ENS) caused by turbinates being cut off. Go to Facebook Empty Nose Forum. My son has this nightmare condition. The dry, crusting, painful nasal mucosa, lack of sleep, and suffocation are all what he has, plus sore throat and cough from air not being warmed and conditions. Panic attacks from lack of oxygen (yet oxygen tests always register fine). Sorry this has happened to you. We are in San Diego. May help to find others who live near you.

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@marychickadee

Not a medical professional -disclaimer. Sounds like you have Empty Nose Syndrome (ENS) caused by turbinates being cut off. Go to Facebook Empty Nose Forum. My son has this nightmare condition. The dry, crusting, painful nasal mucosa, lack of sleep, and suffocation are all what he has, plus sore throat and cough from air not being warmed and conditions. Panic attacks from lack of oxygen (yet oxygen tests always register fine). Sorry this has happened to you. We are in San Diego. May help to find others who live near you.

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@marychickadee– Hi. Can you tell me if your son also had headaches? And how is his mental health? I have tried to stay away from the forums actually, some sound hopeless with too much negativity.

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@123d

Hi group I’m suffering from empty nose syndrome has anyone had any relief from this syndrome

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My son has ENS since jaw surgeon cut his turbinates. Facebook has Empty Nose Forum which may comfort you to talk with other who are suffering and a few have suggestions of personal products they tried. My son has extremely dry nose that crusts and never really heals and stings and hurts (doctor cut turbinates out with scissors then burnt them – after promising not to touch them (obviously it was not a Mayo doctor), episodes of suffocation, severe insomnia (sleeps in short patches), anxiety, sore throat from cold dry air hitting back of throat, cough from lungs getting dry, unfiltered and unconditioned cold air, can't sense air flow. We are in San Diego. My son has had stemcell therapy with Dr. Subinoy Das in Ohio (failed), has been to Italy to see Dr. Fabio Piazza who does rib implants (3 year wait and complicated since jaw surgeon punched hole in lateral nasal wall to sinus), been to see Dr. Jakar Nayak at Stanford (not sure if he still does implants but he may give injections to "beef up" turbinates and create air resistance). We are concluding that there is no real treatment available other than someday stem cells or regeneration of mucosa – all far in future. One person on the Facebook site takes cotton make-up pads, cuts them, then rolls them up and puts in nose and it seems to produce some moisture and slow air rushing through. Sorry for what has happened to you. My son will never be the same. It has forever changed our once happy family..

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@nrd1

@marychickadee– Hi. Can you tell me if your son also had headaches? And how is his mental health? I have tried to stay away from the forums actually, some sound hopeless with too much negativity.

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No headaches. But severe issues with inability to sleep, anxiety, depression. Has not worked since this happened due to depression and fixation on nose. Doctors don't recognize it as being as serious as it is. Saw Dr. Das in Ohio but stem cells didn't work. Dr. Jakar Nayak Stanford will use (hyaluronic acid?) which swells the tissue slowing air flow – he calls it "speed bumps" they last about 3 months. There has to be a turbinate remnant left to do implant. Dr. Nayak is the only one I know of who does those. Not sure cause of headaches but some have mentioned accupuncture working.

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@marychickadee-thank you it sounds like you have learned quite a bit. Do you mind if I private message you for questions?

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@healthiswealth1

Hello group!

I have been expiriencing some very odd symptoms and will try to keep it condensed. In 2014 I had a turbinate reduction(no turbinates were completely removed thankfully) and a septoplasty due to my constant stuffyness and smothered feeling upon waking up. About two years go by and my stuffiness apears the same and also noticing that I feel much more winded when doing activities. Fast forward to july 2018 and I had my first ever anxiety/panic attack. When this occured I felt numbness in certain parts of my body which most of these symptoms are gone. The most notable symptoms that still carry on are these episodes of breathlessness upon simple exertion such as walking/moving fast paced, moving objects over 10 lbs, or pushing my laundry basket, going from low to high altitudes. Also speaking more then a minute causes a pressure breathlessness sensation near my pharynx.It is to the point where I had to leave my job due to the distressing feeling of passing out or running out of breath. I was cleared of any lung or asthma problems and heart apeared healthy from the tests and ct scans done.I am also relatively healthy and try to eat as clean as possible, bit have left out cardio due to my concerns. Ive seen 3 ent specialists and have cleared me of anything out of the ordinary.

What I am wondering is if by any chance a side effect from the turbinate surgery 4 years back could have altered any inhale signaling to the brain or nervous system. I know this could be over thinking but I have been expiriencing several symptoms related to ENS syndrome or empty nose syndrome which correlates to sensations of breathlessness, dry nose(as I have most of the time) and intermittent loss of sensation of air when inhaling through nose(usually when its too hot/humid or too cold). Again these symptoms all seemed to have come after my apparent anxiety attack and Still scratching my head in the sense if these symptoms are anxiety induced or complications of the surgery which I did not feel anything unsual until recent other than dryness and post nasal drip feeling since then.

Any suggestions or input would be
Greatly appreciated!

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I’m so sorry to hear you are going through this also I read it gets worse over time after my surgery I was never told that he emptied out my nose left nothing to even rebuild on very depressing. Hope you are able to get some relief

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@marychickadee

My son has ENS since jaw surgeon cut his turbinates. Facebook has Empty Nose Forum which may comfort you to talk with other who are suffering and a few have suggestions of personal products they tried. My son has extremely dry nose that crusts and never really heals and stings and hurts (doctor cut turbinates out with scissors then burnt them – after promising not to touch them (obviously it was not a Mayo doctor), episodes of suffocation, severe insomnia (sleeps in short patches), anxiety, sore throat from cold dry air hitting back of throat, cough from lungs getting dry, unfiltered and unconditioned cold air, can't sense air flow. We are in San Diego. My son has had stemcell therapy with Dr. Subinoy Das in Ohio (failed), has been to Italy to see Dr. Fabio Piazza who does rib implants (3 year wait and complicated since jaw surgeon punched hole in lateral nasal wall to sinus), been to see Dr. Jakar Nayak at Stanford (not sure if he still does implants but he may give injections to "beef up" turbinates and create air resistance). We are concluding that there is no real treatment available other than someday stem cells or regeneration of mucosa – all far in future. One person on the Facebook site takes cotton make-up pads, cuts them, then rolls them up and puts in nose and it seems to produce some moisture and slow air rushing through. Sorry for what has happened to you. My son will never be the same. It has forever changed our once happy family..

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So sorry to hear your son is going through this I have all the same symptoms it is very hurtful to think a dr would do this to anyone we put trust in them so sad

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@123d

So sorry to hear your son is going through this I have all the same symptoms it is very hurtful to think a dr would do this to anyone we put trust in them so sad

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@marychickadee-thank you for being very open about your sons situation. It’s the only way to make people aware. While I realize people come to the Mayo Clinic site thinking doctors are the solution for everything, it is so important to educate how they are also not the solution as well. I can not believe what I have learned about the ENT surgical practice/procedures. They do not educate their patients because if they truly did, no patient would opp for surgery. I had a very prestigious well known ENT that they are 50 years behind cardiology in understanding how the nose truly works. The nose is an entire organ system. If more people understood that they are having an organ cut into, which contributes to every function in the body, they would think twice before allowing someone to cut into them. I also had an ENT tell me that it is very rare that anyone who ends up at an ENT appt ever should have a surgery recommended, he stated 10%, in fact.
They don’t discuss how badly you will suffer when scar tissue develops. Well scarring happens with every type of cut into the body. If scars develop in your breathing pathway, it is so detrimental to your health. And they obviously don’t even acknowledge ENS because they would lose their main source of income. I was referred to a Neurologist post surgery and I was told by the Neuro herself “you have no idea how many patients I see after an ENT surgery because they have no idea about the nerves in the nose or the pain they cause”. These surgeries are the largest amount performed in the U.S. out of all surgeries, due to how they are presented as “simple minimally invasive procedures”. They don’t even use the word surgery which is their way of making it sound simple. All surgery is a trauma to the body, especially your breathing system. Everyone needs to be made aware of the facts.

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@nrd1

@marychickadee-thank you for being very open about your sons situation. It’s the only way to make people aware. While I realize people come to the Mayo Clinic site thinking doctors are the solution for everything, it is so important to educate how they are also not the solution as well. I can not believe what I have learned about the ENT surgical practice/procedures. They do not educate their patients because if they truly did, no patient would opp for surgery. I had a very prestigious well known ENT that they are 50 years behind cardiology in understanding how the nose truly works. The nose is an entire organ system. If more people understood that they are having an organ cut into, which contributes to every function in the body, they would think twice before allowing someone to cut into them. I also had an ENT tell me that it is very rare that anyone who ends up at an ENT appt ever should have a surgery recommended, he stated 10%, in fact.
They don’t discuss how badly you will suffer when scar tissue develops. Well scarring happens with every type of cut into the body. If scars develop in your breathing pathway, it is so detrimental to your health. And they obviously don’t even acknowledge ENS because they would lose their main source of income. I was referred to a Neurologist post surgery and I was told by the Neuro herself “you have no idea how many patients I see after an ENT surgery because they have no idea about the nerves in the nose or the pain they cause”. These surgeries are the largest amount performed in the U.S. out of all surgeries, due to how they are presented as “simple minimally invasive procedures”. They don’t even use the word surgery which is their way of making it sound simple. All surgery is a trauma to the body, especially your breathing system. Everyone needs to be made aware of the facts.

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you are so right. Turbinate reduction is a huge money maker. So many people hurt, many young.

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@marychickadee-unfortunately it is not just turbinate alteration that causes this. It can happen with any alteration to the entire system. Septoplasty, sinus widening, removal of any tissue in nose. There are many studies that prove structures in the nose do not cause the main issues that people have. Only 10% of people ever present with a true/real “abnormalities” in the nose. Stress, barometric pressure, nutrition, allergies and other external factors play a role. 80% of the population has a deviated septum. So if someone goes to an ENT for say, possible allergies or breathing issues, they will tell a patient “look, your septum is deviated”. This leads patients to feel they have a “problem” when in fact they are normal.
They then don’t include the high chances of septal perforations with septoplasty. When you are left w/ a perforation, you will then be told it is very risky to repair this and only a very skilled physician can perform these rare fixes. They also don’t explain that the eye area is only separated by an egg shell thin bone to your nose. A friends father of mine went to an ENT for just a bothersome feeling of post nasal drip. ENT told him surgery would help with that (which it does not at all). He ended up going blind in one eye due to a breach of the bone and nerve. Blind all for a minor annoyance. I include all of this and different situations I have since learned of to bring awareness of an underreported serious problem specifically to this specialty. With more real life awareness hopefully people will think twice about listening to a surgeon. These are all elective surgeries. Non life threatening situations to be recommended any type of alteration to your natural anatomy.

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@nrd1

@marychickadee-thank you it sounds like you have learned quite a bit. Do you mind if I private message you for questions?

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you are most welcome to private message me. If you wish to talk outside of the forum, my general email is: strawhut@roadrunner.com

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I just read something on it as a doctor wanted to use it to open my son's nasal valve. It clearly said that it was used to shrink turbinates. I would be very careful.

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