Other causes of failed PEth test for alchohol abuse?

Posted by gjones1956 @gjones1956, Nov 14, 2017

My daughter undergoes periodic peth testing for alchohol abuse. She fails regularly, although swears she drinks NOTHING. We have reason to believe she is telling the truth. Assuming she is indeed not drinking, is there a physical condition or ailment that might produce positive peth tests? She is 29, has enlarged lymph nodes, some kind of mysterious condition that gives her severe hives, etc. We are wondering if some type of autoinflammation or autoimmune condition might explain elevated levels. Our daughter is FINALLY discussing this with her regular doctor but if it is some unusual condition a specialist will be needed. The reason the peth test is required is due to a nasty custody dispute with lots of allegations of misconduct. I just want to know if there is ANYTHING other than alchohol consumption that can lead to positive test results. Any thoughts or knowledge of cases? Thanks for reading.

@hulalupa

Thank you John So much for these links… I really appreciate it!
Lupa

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@hulalupa If you are able, can you keep us updated with the outcome?

Liked by Lisa Lucier

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@gjones1956 – you'd talked about your daughter having routine PEth testing and failing regularly. How is that going, and how is the custody dispute situation?

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@genie862017

I was wondering the accuracy of USDTL. I am also wondering about expiration dates on the cards used to collect samples. If they have lot numbers, have there been recalls. How many positive tests in lot number sets. Are the skewed batches of cards are there to increase the testing . I could go on.

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Essentially all of the "research" published on the accuracy and validity of these tests is generated by those promoting (and profiting) from them. Because these tests are only being used in the criminal justice/ family court/professional health program settings and it is not a competitive market there is no impetus for research aimed at contradicting any of it so no counter-studies exist, If these tests were being used on, for example, employees represented by a union they certainly would but no organization that has anyone looking out for the best interests of its members would ever allow this testing to begin with. The accuracy of those performing these tests needs to be questioned. So too does their integrity. https://disruptedphysician.com/2014/11/07/integrity-and-accountability-the-declining-state-of-physician-health-programs-and-the-urgent-need-for-ethical-and-evidence-based-leadership/

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@peterpansdotter

Hi @roxycarmichael can you explain alittle more about Phytoceramide and Honokiol? Do they help show a negative result on the PeTh blood sample?

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Sorry for the delay….I didn’t realize you’d replied!

From what I can tell one gram of oral honokiol taken twice daily will block the PLD enzyme and therefore block the formation of PEth.

Now…everyone’s different and probably some people have a more active PLD system than others. But from what I can tell, one gram by mouth twice a day should block it.

No overdose or toxicity has ever been reported with Honokiol…but you might want to start slow with it. Some people say it makes them tired.

You can get Honokiol over the counter at health food stores…it usually comes in 200 mg or 250 mg capsules. So that means you’d need to take four or five capsules by mouth twice a day, depending on the capsule size.

Hope this helps.

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@roxycarmichael

Sorry for the delay….I didn’t realize you’d replied!

From what I can tell one gram of oral honokiol taken twice daily will block the PLD enzyme and therefore block the formation of PEth.

Now…everyone’s different and probably some people have a more active PLD system than others. But from what I can tell, one gram by mouth twice a day should block it.

No overdose or toxicity has ever been reported with Honokiol…but you might want to start slow with it. Some people say it makes them tired.

You can get Honokiol over the counter at health food stores…it usually comes in 200 mg or 250 mg capsules. So that means you’d need to take four or five capsules by mouth twice a day, depending on the capsule size.

Hope this helps.

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Thank you for the response!!! I have been taking 250 mg of Honokiol at night… for about 2 weeks… I know I have a Peth test in 3 weeks… should I increase the 250mg? and do you have any idea how long it takes to block PLD? I know that my peth was high because I work with pure ethanol in doing patina for Bronze sculpture… of course my Dr's think I am full of it, but I don't drink!!! Thank you

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@hulalupa

Thank you for the response!!! I have been taking 250 mg of Honokiol at night… for about 2 weeks… I know I have a Peth test in 3 weeks… should I increase the 250mg? and do you have any idea how long it takes to block PLD? I know that my peth was high because I work with pure ethanol in doing patina for Bronze sculpture… of course my Dr's think I am full of it, but I don't drink!!! Thank you

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From what I’ve seen I don’t think 250 mg once a day will do it. It MIGHT (because everybody’s different) , but I doubt it. I would at least do 500 mg twice a day and see how the next PEth looks.

Very hard to say when it will kick in. I imagine it will start working against PLD right away…but in terms of when it will work OPTIMALLY, we might assume that that will require the drug to reach a “steady state.” We really don’t know about Honokiol to address these issues, but there are some GENERAL rules we can apply.

In rats, doses of Honokiol given IV (rather than by mouth) have a half-life of about an hour. But it’s hard to apply that to our situation because we’re requiring absorption from the bowel rather than direction injection into the blood. Plus Honokiol is primarily metabolized in the liver, and that can complicate things when you’re dealing with an oral drug.

An educated guess is that you’d be a steady state in five to 10 hours. That’s just an educated guess.

Another, maybe less reliable rule of thumb is that you’ll steady state after seven doses of the drug. Whatever the car, it’ll start working quickly.

All of this info just highlights the overarching point that these mendacious, unethical test developers are really putting a lot of people on the spot by trotting out a test without sufficient study. How they can look at themselves in the mirror every morning is beyond me. And, no, that’s a comment on their lack of ethics, not their lack of looks…though….I’ve done some. background on these punk test developers and seen photos of some of them. Shhhh…just between you, me, and the wall….the mug on each one of them would make a freight train take a dirt road on a GOOD day. But shhhh on that.

I dang wish a good lawyer would get on this issue and take these for-profit test developers and companies to school. In Federal court!

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@johnbishop

Hello @brundle — I would like to add my welcome to Connect along with @lisalucier. I did a search and found an article on the National Institutes of Health site that has an extensive section on PEth testing.

Biomolecules and Biomarkers Used in Diagnosis of Alcohol Drinking and in Monitoring Therapeutic Interventions
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4598755/

I also found a lot of research information on Google Scholar (https://scholar.google.com/) using the search phrase "peth alcohol test false positive". Here are the search results links:
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_ylo=2018&q=peth+alcohol+test+false+positive&hl=en&as_sdt=1,24&as_vis=1

Hoping you find some answers…

John

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I am dealing with a custody issue and having similar problems. The court REFUSES to consider that tests are false. How is your case going? I would like to see if we can change this….we need a voice, surely there must be a lot more like us. Strength in numbers is my thought…

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@roxycarmichael

From what I’ve seen I don’t think 250 mg once a day will do it. It MIGHT (because everybody’s different) , but I doubt it. I would at least do 500 mg twice a day and see how the next PEth looks.

Very hard to say when it will kick in. I imagine it will start working against PLD right away…but in terms of when it will work OPTIMALLY, we might assume that that will require the drug to reach a “steady state.” We really don’t know about Honokiol to address these issues, but there are some GENERAL rules we can apply.

In rats, doses of Honokiol given IV (rather than by mouth) have a half-life of about an hour. But it’s hard to apply that to our situation because we’re requiring absorption from the bowel rather than direction injection into the blood. Plus Honokiol is primarily metabolized in the liver, and that can complicate things when you’re dealing with an oral drug.

An educated guess is that you’d be a steady state in five to 10 hours. That’s just an educated guess.

Another, maybe less reliable rule of thumb is that you’ll steady state after seven doses of the drug. Whatever the car, it’ll start working quickly.

All of this info just highlights the overarching point that these mendacious, unethical test developers are really putting a lot of people on the spot by trotting out a test without sufficient study. How they can look at themselves in the mirror every morning is beyond me. And, no, that’s a comment on their lack of ethics, not their lack of looks…though….I’ve done some. background on these punk test developers and seen photos of some of them. Shhhh…just between you, me, and the wall….the mug on each one of them would make a freight train take a dirt road on a GOOD day. But shhhh on that.

I dang wish a good lawyer would get on this issue and take these for-profit test developers and companies to school. In Federal court!

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I agree a lawyer who would go to bat for good ppl getting railroaded! Surely there's someone out there willing to take this on!

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If I drank I non alcoholic beer the day before a Peth test would it show positive?

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I joined specifically to comment in this group. I have regular and random alcohol use screening from two separate providers. I consistently pass GGT and CDT test but one provider decided to give me a PEth and Ethyl Glucuronide test. I passed the Ethyl Glucuronide test but had a 653 ng/mL PEth result well above the 20 ng/mL cutoff. Slightly worried and working on my rebuttal. Although this provider is not my primary care physician who actually handles and controls my case she can influence him. I just had an appointment with him and he has little concern about my abstinence. However, non-FDA approved testing can derail that apparently according to peoples posts.

I wanted to share this, it came directly from my lab results which I have full access to:
"Comments: Analyzed compound: PEth 16:0/18:1. 1-palmitoyl-2-oleoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphoethanol. Analysis performed by Liquid Chromatography with Tandem Mass Spectrometry (LC/MS/MS). Detection limit: 20 ng/mL PEth levels in excess of 20 ng/mL are considered evidence of moderate to heavy ethanol consumption. However, the Center for Substance Abuse Treatment (CSAT) advises caution in interpretation and use of biomarkers alone to assess alcohol use. Results should be interpreted in the context of all available clinical and behavioral information. Reference: Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (2012). \"The Role of Biomarkers in the Treatment of Alcohol Use Disorders\", 2012 Revision. Advisory, Volume 11, Issue 2. This test was developed and its performance characteristics determined by LabCorp. It has not been cleared or approved by the Food and Drug Administration."

I hope the comments will help someone else bolster their case as to the lack of validity using PEth as a sole biomarker.

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@hawkerf

If I drank I non alcoholic beer the day before a Peth test would it show positive?

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Good question, hope someone has an answer. I might try it out as the guinea pig and let you know. I have told my primary doctor that I have found non-alcoholic craft beer and he expressed little concern. Mouth wash and nyquil have more alcohol in them. Check out surreal brewing if you're interested in good non-a beer.

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@yorkie0727

I joined specifically to comment in this group. I have regular and random alcohol use screening from two separate providers. I consistently pass GGT and CDT test but one provider decided to give me a PEth and Ethyl Glucuronide test. I passed the Ethyl Glucuronide test but had a 653 ng/mL PEth result well above the 20 ng/mL cutoff. Slightly worried and working on my rebuttal. Although this provider is not my primary care physician who actually handles and controls my case she can influence him. I just had an appointment with him and he has little concern about my abstinence. However, non-FDA approved testing can derail that apparently according to peoples posts.

I wanted to share this, it came directly from my lab results which I have full access to:
"Comments: Analyzed compound: PEth 16:0/18:1. 1-palmitoyl-2-oleoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphoethanol. Analysis performed by Liquid Chromatography with Tandem Mass Spectrometry (LC/MS/MS). Detection limit: 20 ng/mL PEth levels in excess of 20 ng/mL are considered evidence of moderate to heavy ethanol consumption. However, the Center for Substance Abuse Treatment (CSAT) advises caution in interpretation and use of biomarkers alone to assess alcohol use. Results should be interpreted in the context of all available clinical and behavioral information. Reference: Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (2012). \"The Role of Biomarkers in the Treatment of Alcohol Use Disorders\", 2012 Revision. Advisory, Volume 11, Issue 2. This test was developed and its performance characteristics determined by LabCorp. It has not been cleared or approved by the Food and Drug Administration."

I hope the comments will help someone else bolster their case as to the lack of validity using PEth as a sole biomarker.

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I can tell you there are at least a couple people on this forum I am confident were railroaded by bad PETH tests from LabCorp. Interestingly the two I am personally aware of both were tested at the same testing facility (in Dallas) but passed the exact same LabCorp tests at other testing facilities the same/next day. What I cannot tell you is if the issue is the LabCorp test or the test facility… but something with these tests are definitely wrong. I would strongly encourage you to go take the PETH again somewhere else (even if they use LabCorp as the backend) and compare the results. Depending on the timelines for doing so you can make the argument that it could have naturally fallen but if you are taking it close together – ideally the same day – it is pretty hard to argue something is not wrong wit the test. Of note there are also blood-drawn (e.g. using a vial vs a finger prick card) that also have produced good results for us while failing the LabCorp test. Request-a-Test as example does this test. PM me if you need more info or if you happen to be failing the test in Dallas as I would like to compare notes with you. I would also be interested in if you take the LabCorp test somewhere else and pass it on the same/next day if you have to take the test again.

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@pethmadness

I can tell you there are at least a couple people on this forum I am confident were railroaded by bad PETH tests from LabCorp. Interestingly the two I am personally aware of both were tested at the same testing facility (in Dallas) but passed the exact same LabCorp tests at other testing facilities the same/next day. What I cannot tell you is if the issue is the LabCorp test or the test facility… but something with these tests are definitely wrong. I would strongly encourage you to go take the PETH again somewhere else (even if they use LabCorp as the backend) and compare the results. Depending on the timelines for doing so you can make the argument that it could have naturally fallen but if you are taking it close together – ideally the same day – it is pretty hard to argue something is not wrong wit the test. Of note there are also blood-drawn (e.g. using a vial vs a finger prick card) that also have produced good results for us while failing the LabCorp test. Request-a-Test as example does this test. PM me if you need more info or if you happen to be failing the test in Dallas as I would like to compare notes with you. I would also be interested in if you take the LabCorp test somewhere else and pass it on the same/next day if you have to take the test again.

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I have taken several PEth test through request a test and they are awful! I had to explain to them several time that it is a blood test, as they wanted to test my urine for the PEth test. I haven’t drank in almost 2 years and my levels were 220!!! It’s completely insane. I’m 5’6 and weigh 110 pounds. If my levels were actually that high I wouldn’t be able to function. There is definitely something wrong with the PEth test as I have passed every other test you can possibly take regarding alcohol.

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@nnhightower

I have taken several PEth test through request a test and they are awful! I had to explain to them several time that it is a blood test, as they wanted to test my urine for the PEth test. I haven’t drank in almost 2 years and my levels were 220!!! It’s completely insane. I’m 5’6 and weigh 110 pounds. If my levels were actually that high I wouldn’t be able to function. There is definitely something wrong with the PEth test as I have passed every other test you can possibly take regarding alcohol.

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On 4 January I had a full work up minus a PEth test and was normal, CDT was normal but GGT was slightly elevated, Doctor had no concerns, 29 January I had an Ethanol blood test that was negative. Now on 7 Feb I had an EtG test that was negative but the PEth that day was 653? I would have had to have been binge drinking everyday in January and then some to have a level that high and would have been positive on at least one ethanol test. 653?!? Shouldn't I be dead?

Liked by nnhightower

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@nnhightower

I have taken several PEth test through request a test and they are awful! I had to explain to them several time that it is a blood test, as they wanted to test my urine for the PEth test. I haven’t drank in almost 2 years and my levels were 220!!! It’s completely insane. I’m 5’6 and weigh 110 pounds. If my levels were actually that high I wouldn’t be able to function. There is definitely something wrong with the PEth test as I have passed every other test you can possibly take regarding alcohol.

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I completely believe you. These testing folks are like a bad doctor: they think they know everything precisely because they don’t know what they don’t know. It’s a nightmare! Mayo, please help!!!

Liked by nnhightower

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