@2011panc
Not sure how to answer your post. Maybe it's to soon. What I've done was not be a pest to her. I only called twice to her. Once about three days after she left. I had no idea what was going yet as I had no word from her yet. I asked her what was up and she just started crying and mumbled a lot of stuff and said she was sick and needed help. Be then I'd all ready discovered her deceit and Steve L. (a snake charmer, Mary's words) He was Mary's first husband and the story is really sordid, and they think I'm a sinner. Mary's calls always came with a twist of the dagger and when she did that I'd just say goodbye and hang up. Tough if she doesn't like it but I think it's mean and purposeful. Once she called and asked how my new girlfriends were. That is bs stuff and I told her I was not interested. Bye!

The second call I made because I'd made Mary cry when she came to pick up her stuff with her son, they brought a moving truck and I helped and was polite. Anyway I called about a week later and apologized to her for the grief I caused and for making her cry and etc. Then I hung up because they wouldn't answer the phone. I can be an ass but they were pretty mean to me. Long story.

Not sure I want to put myself in her shoes as I've done a lot of thinking and wondering about that church she joined. It's a cult. I've been there and know what I'm talking about, ten years before I got out of that.

I literally rescued Mary when she got lost and spent a night in the woods. I found her around 8 am on a Saturday morning, I was out for firewood for my cabin.
After we married we had to deal with her son Jon. He was deep into Meth., I'd give him work but I told him he'd have to find his own apartment which he did. Anyway we all worked together and got him into rehab which worked. Now he is a good successful HVAC tech in the school system in Castro Valley, Ca.
I need to bookmark this page and come back here. Guess I'm a bit on the testy side right now to even think of your proposal. I have always hated betrayal and it's going to be hard to understand what you say. Maybe you could help me as I'm new here and not really great on computers.

@muppey Thank you for responding to my post. I agree that it is probably too soon for you to understand Mary's side of things. Understanding does not mean agreement or approval. Please understand that I am just sharing some of my past in hopes that it may help you in some way.
You did a wonderful thing by rescuing her when she was lost in the woods. Being a curious person, I wonder if that led to an element of savior/survivor in your relationship. You did another wonderful thing by working with her and her son to get him off drugs and into a fulfilling life and lifestyle. Again did this give you an element of "better than" in either your eyes or theirs? That would be normal and not a problem unless any of you tried to use that element to manipulate or control one of the others in the relationship.
Her "church" affiliation is, in my opinion, a big part of your current situation. I understand a little of their beliefs and from my perspective her current actions are completely in line with their teachings. She needs to witness and save everyone she begins a relationship with in a certain amount of time or completely cut off all communications in order to acquire and maintain her place in the lineup for heaven, which has limited space. There are many daily rituals and requirements that I do not know but suspect she was breaking every day that she spent with you. Leaving you physically but keeping a line of communication open to save your soul would be sanctioned by her church. In her church's eyes and in her eyes you are a "sinner" or "undesirable" person needing salvation. Do you see how this additionally confuses the situation because you literally DID save her but her church is telling her that she needs to save you.
As far as where you are in this process, I think you are right where you need to be. I see you as deeply hurt, lost in feelings, resentful, and searching. That is very appropriate for you at this point. I do not think you will stay in this situation forever, but no one really knows how long that will be. It will be don when it is done.
I understand the feeling of betrayal. I felt like, "after all I have done for you, THIS is what I get back"? That is what I hear in your posts, which, again, is completely appropriate. Bottom line, I wanted. I wanted things. I wanted people. I wanted friendships. I wanted family (had to make a family life for my children). I wanted acceptance. I wanted esteem. I wanted honor. I wanted to feel honorable. I wanted so much and that wanting is what pulled me beyond an into making my life what I could accept and enjoy. I know you will get there. I also know that the time until you do get there will be taxing and difficult.
Maybe it will help you to remember that God won't necessarily give us what we want; but he always makes sure we have what we need. Bless you as you begin another new life.

@2011panc, You write hard! The lost in the woods thing has never come up in anything like me looking down at Mary, not at all. Mary used to tell everyone that "Mark found me lost in the woods". It was never in my mind something she owed me back. I did think it was kind of romantic because we went back down the canyon jeep trail and I pulled her car out with my jeep. She'd burned her clutch trying to get out of there and was saved by a boulder which caught her right rear, otherwise she'd been in the river. I took her to my cabin and fed her a tuna sandwich and then we spent the afternoon just talking. Anyway the next day I got her to an auto mechanic and loaned her some money to get it fixed. I made her pay it back.

"better than" That's a laugh! One of my prayers was "Can I get a brain!". Never thought that. We worked well together and had lot's of fun. She even learned my schedule and changed her schedule so we could have more time together when I'd come up from San Mateo.

I know a lot about her church and her beliefs and I think it's nuts but I never put her down and made sure there was gas in the car for her to get around, go to church and all that.

The "I am worthy" and by implication "you are not worthy" did bother me because her and I discussed the Bible a lot and we discussed the verse that says "there are none righteous (worthy) no not one." The funny thing is that when I'd tell a story at the dinner table, before they all became Mormons, Jon would say "Where'd you come up with that bullshit?" Well I've had a life and I'm older than you and I've done and experienced a thing or two. I never defended myself I just thought what kind of asshole would do that? Jon really did start thinking he was better than me. Guess he forget about being loaded and sleeping in our front yard. I'd look out there wondering what that was, Jon. His name was Jared back then. But I guess changing to Jon it was him putting things in the past. I know I was an alcoholic but damn, I'd put a bottle in the frig for the whole weekend and Mary would sometimes go up there to the kitchen and drink the whole thing down, found her passed out on the floor one after work, she's pounded a whole fifth. Hospital time.

I know good and well I won't be like this for to long. I have things to do which I'm not able to do right now but it'll get clear. Happened before with Paula, will happen again.

Maybe one of my problems is that I never really wanted much. If people didn't like me or betrayed me I said goodbye, got enough problems without you turning your little dagger in me. Don't like traitors and guess I never will. Haven't ever had one apologize to me.

One verse out of one of my poems goes, "And I fail to see the arrows fly...Into my soul as if I'd die.
When someone does something mean it's always a surprise attack and it baffles the mind when they do things like that. Happened in the Army. I just left them be and had nothing to do with them which puzzled them but what they did was cruel. I'd talk about that in private but not here. It's a short story but not nice at all.

@muppey

I'm sure sorry that you've had such bad experiences with people. Most of my life, I was able to let things just slide by. I would just forget things that were said. I guess that's one time when it's good to have a lousy memory.

Jim

jimhd, I've read your post's and seems like you've had a lot of bummer's with people too. I've always been guarded I guess, just can't stand betrayal. Seems like you've been betrayed a time of more. I know we are commanded to forgive and apologize to those who we hurt or if possible to those who've harmed us. I did apologize to Mary but those people won't pick up the phone so I left it on the recorder. I know their habits and I know Jon keeps his phone with him when they are all watching the tv. Been there many times. They are a bunch of hypocrites and liars. I know what I'm saying. They are perfect in their own eyes because they can go to the temple and baptize lots of dead people so they will pass onto Joseph Smith who seems to be more powerful the Jesus. It is very common for them to become liars because they are built on a lie and I have read some of their goofy, contradictory books, not all, it takes little to dismiss Joseph Smith if you even have a little understanding of the Bible.
Now I'm getting pissed again and so I should stop.
Thanks Jim. ps: I don't put all blame on Mary but I did trust her with a lot of my life's secrets and she blabbed them to her friend and she blabbed and it came back to me. That is wrong...period. I've not let one bad word out to anyone. I did explain what happened but just said, oh well, nothing I can do, just can't believe she would just disappear, poof, just gone, it really makes you feel like someone really hates you.
I guess I'll be here a while. Thanks again.

2011panc,
I just re read your post above. I think you don't understand me at all. I've never thought I was superior to anyone. The rescue was romantic. Mary bragged about it a lot but I was just happy we met. I have never brought it up at all that I can recall...Like I saved you now you owe me. That's not how my mind works. I do something and no one owes me anything, my mind does not work that way. I do something like get cut in a knife fight, long story, in our Army barracks I didn't run to anyone and complain. It was with the Old Black Panthers, which is another thing I dealt with at the VA. The next morning after the fight the guy who almost bashed my head in was a line cook doing eggs, he just smiled and said "How you want your eggs." Sunny side over.
I could have made a stink about it and had the guy who cut me arrested and thrown in the stockade. I just wanted peace. The first sergeant was a really great guy, he was also black, but he called a formation on Monday morning and made it clear to all that there was no racial incidents in his battery. I still had about six months to go and there was peace, at least until I was gone. I was surprised when I was leaving that a couple of black guys came up to me to shake my hand and said they were sorry I was leaving. What did I do to deserve that? Two black guys from Chicago I got along with, not buddies but agreeable to each other. They were all full of knife fight scars, but they were good guys. They also were very protective of my number one canoneer, his name was Private Canon. True. He was a little guy and Moore and Turner took him under their wings. There's another story about a big fight I had to break up as I was Charge of Quarters that weekend. One black guy attempted to stab Canon. Moore and Turner found out and a fight proceeded. Big guys and when I had to wade through about twenty black guys I was a little nervous. The room was upside down and nothing in place. I told Moore and Turner to leave Hahn alone. They agreed and that was that. I put Canon in my bed because the door was visible from the First Sergeant's desk. I had to stay awake all night so I watched over him.
Got off track but I'm not really vindictive nor am I mean. Just don't betray me when I pour my heart and soul into you Mary. I didn't withhold from talking or sharing anything from her. Together we work through some of my problems and faults not all but things take time and trust. I trusted her she betrayed me. She knows all my secrets and she used all that against me and blabbed it to her Mormon son, x husband and Melchizedek Priest, Traci her girlfriend up here, her Bishop, and who knows. Should I just go, Oh Well that doesn't bother me?
Sorry but it bothers the hell out of me. Now they can all slam me and feel great about themselves. I think it's evil and they think they are superior as they are working to be GOD.

@jimhd Jim:

"Selective forgetfulness" probably has some advantages! Thanks for the smile.

Teresa

jimhd, Re read your post. Not sure how I can just let things slide by. In AA we are taught to make amends and forgive those who've offended. I've done that with others and I called Mary and left a message of apology, (because I'm not worthy of them they didn't answer), for any grief I'd caused and for making her cry last time I saw her at my house when she was getting her stuff. I know they all listened as that's there habit at her sons house. Jon would often put the phone on speaker. They all watch tv together and talk, the center of the house.
When someone makes a mistake and says something dumb or does something dumb, that's one thing. A calculated attack is another thing. How do you deal with someone when you know they had planned everything out.
Mary and I were planning to move to a retirement place in around two-three years. I'd created a file with letters greeting, and of acceptance and other stuff. Mary told me that she had canceled my name out of the whole deal after she left. Yesterday I went to look at the file because they have other facilities's. Mary had taken all the letters and approvals and every dmn thing. How's that? She also took other documents and etc. She had to do it while I was gone naturally because the file is right here.
It's also my life and she messed it up pretty good.

@muppey

Maybe there are copies of some of the documents. It's hard to understand the inner workings of some people's brains.

I've been having a hard time with "moving forward", as my therapist told me. I know it's what I need to do. It can take a lot of time and effort to do that.

Jim

@jimhd, I sure hope you can get some relief from your pain. I can't stand this stuff. The first or second week after her leaving, my brother came by and wanted me to go to work. I said, "Mike if I could get rid of this today I'd do it, but it's in your head and doesn't want to leave." No one can tell you it will be alright if you just do this or that, there's no light switch and it's impossible to fake it. Just have to do your own therapy I guess. I sit and think and I'm not willing that anyone can take my mind and bend it out of shape. I'm getting up and going to do alright. Might not trust people as I like to do but I'll be all right. That's how I'm dealing with all this betrayal and it's not only Mary, it's friends and like so many people here have been saying, it hurts a lot they treat you like that.
Jim it's people who do this and they shouldn't be able to control you like this. Do they pay rent for the brain space? Just give them their walking papers. Sounds easy on paper but that's what I'm doing. I can now read an article in the news and comprehend it and she doesn't keep popping into my mind. She's gone and she's going away out of my mind. I know she'll always be there like your loved ones, but she is at the end of the line now, and I'm sure you can do something like that. I'll do like panc did and said she'd pray for me. Wow!

You know what I think about therapists. They're great for sitting there and once in a while mine would type a comment or point down. My first time around Paula and I agreed to marriage counseling. One day as we were talking he fell asleep. Must have been awful boring. Big money too. LOL.
However it's good to have someone who is willing to listen to you. Best part of my PTSD thing with the VA was in the group setting. The therapist forced me to talk and then took what I said and asked the group if anyone had the same experience. About 15 people raised their hands and I was surprised. It had to do with arming ourselves, after this particular experience, after we left the army. They all packed and carried knives in their boots, a mixture, but the idea was we were never gonna let that happen again, sneak attacks usually against a lone person unless they out numbered you by a good margin.

Anyway the retirement files and letters are all gone and we'd been on the list for more than a year. Takes a while. I've got a brochure but I'll have to rethink it because the other places aren't in the mountains and I don't want to go to the city. Just me!
Take care Jim.
Mark