Excellent interview of Dr.Bruce Yankner by Katie Couric on lithium- he said DON'T go out and buy OTC lithium rotate. There are dangers to kidneys and other organs from the sounds of it. Google him, and watch the interview before your start taking any form of lithium, especially high doses! Sounds very exciting though and should be human trials within a year at Mass Gen, he said!
@theglobalnomad1
The standard reply from researchers is always to wait for final results from phase 3 studies and officia FDA approval - they need to say those things from a liability concern.
There is an independent credible lab that tests supplements such as lithium orotate - ConsumerLabs. We have purchased one of their tested products to use.
The micro doses and just making sure you hydrate should address any concerns over kidney issues (assuming you don’t have advanced kidney disease).
Our perspective is that the disease is not waiting for FDA approval - thus we are willing to utilize evidence supported approaches such as TMS, 40 Hz light and sound, and lithium to try to slow progression. There are no magic bullets , but even if each treatment approach has only a minor effect, hopefully it will on a cumulative basis have a meaningful effect.
@theglobalnomad1
The standard reply from researchers is always to wait for final results from phase 3 studies and officia FDA approval - they need to say those things from a liability concern.
There is an independent credible lab that tests supplements such as lithium orotate - ConsumerLabs. We have purchased one of their tested products to use.
The micro doses and just making sure you hydrate should address any concerns over kidney issues (assuming you don’t have advanced kidney disease).
Our perspective is that the disease is not waiting for FDA approval - thus we are willing to utilize evidence supported approaches such as TMS, 40 Hz light and sound, and lithium to try to slow progression. There are no magic bullets , but even if each treatment approach has only a minor effect, hopefully it will on a cumulative basis have a meaningful effect.
@ralpha4
I agree. The fact is they sell it as a supplement and if people were dropping from it, we’d know. AD isn’t pausing and I can’t either. But It’s a very personal assessment and decision.. and I have appraised my Docs.
For what it’s worth, I found the transcript of his discussion with Katie Couric. I would say he goes out of his way to minimize the current state of knowledge, but as we discussed, he has to be careful. Near the end he discusses diagnostics today and said that recently, plasma (blood) levels of pathological indicators of AD pathology - amyloid plaques and Tau tangles and such showing up in blood testing. Hell I had that test over two years ago and learned about my AD pathology circulating - as well as the important 42/40 ratio (both are variants of the amyloid-beta protein) that reveals whether the relative amount of AB42 is increasing - as would happen when the proteins aggregate into amyloid plaques.
So he wasn’t wrong exactly - just soft pedaling the current state of knowledge.
I didn’t read much new so have the same opinion I had before. It may be hard on the kidneys - So I divide my weight in half and drink that many ounces of water a day. I am in week 3 on 3mg - moving toward 5mg over the next two weeks where I will hold.
No issues. I take my dose in the evening to get the benefit some report of improved sleep. But it doesn’t really matter from what I have read.
There is a lot of interest on what Dr. Yangker's team used for the dosage to treat their mice during their study and how to translate to what we should take lithium orotate supplement dosage. The paper only mentioned they used 1/1000 of the treatment dosage of lithium carbonate (Li2CO3) on bipolar disorder which is 600mg to 1000mg. Assuming they took an average of say 800mg/day as a basis for drug treatment and use 0.8mg/day for the mice, let's try to calculate an equivalent lithium ion concentration when dissolved in water (plasma). Lithium orotate (LiC5H4N2O4, molecular weight 162) has only one lithium ion per molecule vs 2 lithium ions (Li2CO3 M.W. 74) per molecule, thus a 0.8mg per day of lithium carbonate equals to 0.8*2*(162/74) =3.5mg mg of lithium orotate. Based on this calculation a 3.5mg/day dosage is equivalent to 0.8mg of lithium carbonate which was mentioned in the Yangker study as 1/1000 of bipolar disorder treatment dosage.
This is based on my vague memory of the general chemistry class I took in 1978, 47years ago. I could have made mistakes somewhere so I welcome anyone to poke holes in my calculation. Another problem is more fundamental of assuming equal bioavailability of lithium ions from lithium orotate and lithium carbonate. I was trained as a chemical engineer so this bioavailability issue is not something I learned in the past
I found more studies using lithium carbonate to treat MCI, here is a Brazalian study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30947755/
Clinical and biological effects of long-term lithium treatment in older adults with amnestic mild cognitive impairment: randomised clinical trial
Orestes V Forlenza 1, Márcia Radanovic 1, Leda L Talib 1, Wagner F Gattaz 1
Affiliations Expand
PMID: 30947755 DOI: 10.1192/bjp.2019.76
Abstract
Background: Experimental studies indicate that lithium may facilitate neurotrophic/protective responses in the brain. Epidemiological and imaging studies in bipolar disorder, in addition to a few trials in Alzheimer's disease support the clinical translation of these findings. Nonetheless, there is limited controlled data about potential use of lithium to treat or prevent dementia.
Aims: To determine the benefits of lithium treatment in patients with amnestic mild cognitive impairment (MCI), a clinical condition associated with high risk for Alzheimer's disease.
Method: A total of 61 community-dwelling, physically healthy, older adults with MCI were randomised to receive lithium or placebo (1:1) for 2 years (double-blind phase), and followed-up for an additional 24 months (single-blinded phase) (trial registration at clinicaltrials.gov: NCT01055392). Lithium carbonate was prescribed to yield subtherapeutic concentrations (0.25-0.5 mEq/L). Primary outcome variables were the cognitive (Alzheimer's Disease Assessment Scale - cognitive subscale) and functional (Clinical Dementia Rating - Sum of Boxes) parameters obtained at baseline and after 12 and 24 months. Secondary outcomes were neuropsychological test scores; cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) concentrations of Alzheimer's disease-related biomarkers determined at 0, 12 and 36 months; conversion rate from MCI to dementia (0-48 months).
Results: Participants in the placebo group displayed cognitive and functional decline, whereas lithium-treated patients remained stable over 2 years. Lithium treatment was associated with better performance on memory and attention tests after 24 months, and with a significant increase in CSF amyloid-beta peptide (Aβ1-42) after 36 months.
Conclusions: Long-term lithium attenuates cognitive and functional decline in amnestic MCI, and modifies Alzheimer's disease-related CSF biomarkers. The present data reinforces the disease-modifying properties of lithium in the MCI-Alzheimer's disease continuum.
I am going to start taking low- dose Lithium. If you Google, " Life Extension articles on Lithium," you will find several interesting and informative articles. I am going to take 1000 mcg. One hundred caps for $12.00. I think I will take it every other day.
@colely since 1000 mcg is only 1mg, I am not sure every other day would be necessary. I took 1mg for a week to confirm I didn’t have any kind of allergic reaction. . And you can certainly stay at that level. But I have increased 1mg per week - am at 4 mg now and will level off at 5mg next week.
As an FYI my reading suggests that consistent dosing is best. They suggest you don’t vary broadly from day to day. They even suggest that coffee is fine but not to have big changes in the amount you drink from day to day.
So it seems stability is important.
I don’t know that at only 1mg it will matter a lot - just wanted you to be aware of guidance.
@colely since 1000 mcg is only 1mg, I am not sure every other day would be necessary. I took 1mg for a week to confirm I didn’t have any kind of allergic reaction. . And you can certainly stay at that level. But I have increased 1mg per week - am at 4 mg now and will level off at 5mg next week.
As an FYI my reading suggests that consistent dosing is best. They suggest you don’t vary broadly from day to day. They even suggest that coffee is fine but not to have big changes in the amount you drink from day to day.
So it seems stability is important.
I don’t know that at only 1mg it will matter a lot - just wanted you to be aware of guidance.
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@theglobalnomad1
The standard reply from researchers is always to wait for final results from phase 3 studies and officia FDA approval - they need to say those things from a liability concern.
There is an independent credible lab that tests supplements such as lithium orotate - ConsumerLabs. We have purchased one of their tested products to use.
The micro doses and just making sure you hydrate should address any concerns over kidney issues (assuming you don’t have advanced kidney disease).
Our perspective is that the disease is not waiting for FDA approval - thus we are willing to utilize evidence supported approaches such as TMS, 40 Hz light and sound, and lithium to try to slow progression. There are no magic bullets , but even if each treatment approach has only a minor effect, hopefully it will on a cumulative basis have a meaningful effect.
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4 Reactions@ralpha4
I agree. The fact is they sell it as a supplement and if people were dropping from it, we’d know. AD isn’t pausing and I can’t either. But It’s a very personal assessment and decision.. and I have appraised my Docs.
For what it’s worth, I found the transcript of his discussion with Katie Couric. I would say he goes out of his way to minimize the current state of knowledge, but as we discussed, he has to be careful. Near the end he discusses diagnostics today and said that recently, plasma (blood) levels of pathological indicators of AD pathology - amyloid plaques and Tau tangles and such showing up in blood testing. Hell I had that test over two years ago and learned about my AD pathology circulating - as well as the important 42/40 ratio (both are variants of the amyloid-beta protein) that reveals whether the relative amount of AB42 is increasing - as would happen when the proteins aggregate into amyloid plaques.
So he wasn’t wrong exactly - just soft pedaling the current state of knowledge.
I didn’t read much new so have the same opinion I had before. It may be hard on the kidneys - So I divide my weight in half and drink that many ounces of water a day. I am in week 3 on 3mg - moving toward 5mg over the next two weeks where I will hold.
No issues. I take my dose in the evening to get the benefit some report of improved sleep. But it doesn’t really matter from what I have read.
The transcript on PBS.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/science/4-things-to-know-about-a-new-study-on-lithium-and-alzheimers-disease
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2 ReactionsThere is a lot of interest on what Dr. Yangker's team used for the dosage to treat their mice during their study and how to translate to what we should take lithium orotate supplement dosage. The paper only mentioned they used 1/1000 of the treatment dosage of lithium carbonate (Li2CO3) on bipolar disorder which is 600mg to 1000mg. Assuming they took an average of say 800mg/day as a basis for drug treatment and use 0.8mg/day for the mice, let's try to calculate an equivalent lithium ion concentration when dissolved in water (plasma). Lithium orotate (LiC5H4N2O4, molecular weight 162) has only one lithium ion per molecule vs 2 lithium ions (Li2CO3 M.W. 74) per molecule, thus a 0.8mg per day of lithium carbonate equals to 0.8*2*(162/74) =3.5mg mg of lithium orotate. Based on this calculation a 3.5mg/day dosage is equivalent to 0.8mg of lithium carbonate which was mentioned in the Yangker study as 1/1000 of bipolar disorder treatment dosage.
This is based on my vague memory of the general chemistry class I took in 1978, 47years ago. I could have made mistakes somewhere so I welcome anyone to poke holes in my calculation. Another problem is more fundamental of assuming equal bioavailability of lithium ions from lithium orotate and lithium carbonate. I was trained as a chemical engineer so this bioavailability issue is not something I learned in the past
I found more studies using lithium carbonate to treat MCI, here is a Brazalian study:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30947755/
Clinical and biological effects of long-term lithium treatment in older adults with amnestic mild cognitive impairment: randomised clinical trial
Orestes V Forlenza 1, Márcia Radanovic 1, Leda L Talib 1, Wagner F Gattaz 1
Affiliations Expand
PMID: 30947755 DOI: 10.1192/bjp.2019.76
Abstract
Background: Experimental studies indicate that lithium may facilitate neurotrophic/protective responses in the brain. Epidemiological and imaging studies in bipolar disorder, in addition to a few trials in Alzheimer's disease support the clinical translation of these findings. Nonetheless, there is limited controlled data about potential use of lithium to treat or prevent dementia.
Aims: To determine the benefits of lithium treatment in patients with amnestic mild cognitive impairment (MCI), a clinical condition associated with high risk for Alzheimer's disease.
Method: A total of 61 community-dwelling, physically healthy, older adults with MCI were randomised to receive lithium or placebo (1:1) for 2 years (double-blind phase), and followed-up for an additional 24 months (single-blinded phase) (trial registration at clinicaltrials.gov: NCT01055392). Lithium carbonate was prescribed to yield subtherapeutic concentrations (0.25-0.5 mEq/L). Primary outcome variables were the cognitive (Alzheimer's Disease Assessment Scale - cognitive subscale) and functional (Clinical Dementia Rating - Sum of Boxes) parameters obtained at baseline and after 12 and 24 months. Secondary outcomes were neuropsychological test scores; cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) concentrations of Alzheimer's disease-related biomarkers determined at 0, 12 and 36 months; conversion rate from MCI to dementia (0-48 months).
Results: Participants in the placebo group displayed cognitive and functional decline, whereas lithium-treated patients remained stable over 2 years. Lithium treatment was associated with better performance on memory and attention tests after 24 months, and with a significant increase in CSF amyloid-beta peptide (Aβ1-42) after 36 months.
Conclusions: Long-term lithium attenuates cognitive and functional decline in amnestic MCI, and modifies Alzheimer's disease-related CSF biomarkers. The present data reinforces the disease-modifying properties of lithium in the MCI-Alzheimer's disease continuum.
Declaration of interest: None.
Keywords: Alzheimer's disease; clinical trial; lithium; mild cognitive impairment; treatment.
Another study by University of Pittsburgh but I could not find published results from the study:
https://lldep.pitt.edu/projects-2/lattice/
@colely since 1000 mcg is only 1mg, I am not sure every other day would be necessary. I took 1mg for a week to confirm I didn’t have any kind of allergic reaction. . And you can certainly stay at that level. But I have increased 1mg per week - am at 4 mg now and will level off at 5mg next week.
As an FYI my reading suggests that consistent dosing is best. They suggest you don’t vary broadly from day to day. They even suggest that coffee is fine but not to have big changes in the amount you drink from day to day.
So it seems stability is important.
I don’t know that at only 1mg it will matter a lot - just wanted you to be aware of guidance.
@phb50 Thank you for your information!
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1 ReactionI take it with nmnh (NAD+ precursor) and glutathione. I further combine it with magnesium complex and methylated b vitamin.
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1 Reaction@darienneadams I read that magnesium competes for absorption with lithium so I take magnesium in the morning and lithium at night.
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