Erosive Osteoarthritis

Posted by anniebrook @anniebrook, Feb 12 11:48am

I have been trying to get answers for many years to find out why my OA in my hands is so painful and debilitating. It doesn't look as bad to the eye as many other people I have met that also have OA but have huge joint nodes but say it's not too painful. I had the traditional basal thumb surgery on left and right hands,left went well 10yrs ago but right which I had one yr later has never been pain free.. About 6 mths ago the pain in the back of my right wrist became so much worse at the same time a large lump appeared.I thought this was probably a Ganglion then a few weeks later a softer round lump appeared on the dip joint on the inside of my right little finger which as made the joint very swollen. Eventually got Xrays of both hands which have now been diagnosed as Erosive Osteoarthritis which I have never heard of. Prognosis doesn't look good with this type of OA. Has anyone else been diagnosed with this and do I ask to be referred to a Rheumatologist ? How do I deal with this ? Is there any meds I can take for pain and to slow down the progression ? Thank you

@colleenyoung

Here is more information about boron from evidence-based sources.

– Brains, Bones, and Boron https://www.healthline.com/health/brains-bones-boron
"While boron supplements have been considered as a possible treatment for people with arthritis, more clinical evidence is needed to support this claim.
Boron is considered safe for most people, but large amounts can be harmful. There also isn’t data regarding a safe level for children younger than 1 year old. Its safety hasn’t been studied in pregnant women.
It’s important that you talk with your doctor before taking supplements. It’s unlikely that boron supplements are necessary. Most experts recommend increasing intake through dietary sources like fruits and vegetables before considering supplements.
If you don’t want to take additional boron supplements, eating foods that contain boron, like prunes, raisins, dried apricots, or avocados, can help increase boron levels."

– NIH Medline Plus: Boron https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/natural/894.html
"When taken by mouth: Boron is LIKELY SAFE when taken by mouth in doses that don't exceed 20 mg per day. Boron is POSSIBLY UNSAFE when taken by mouth in higher doses. There is some concern that doses over 20 mg per day might harm a man's ability to father a child. Large quantities of boron can also cause poisoning. Signs of poisoning include skin inflammation and peeling, irritability, tremors, convulsions, weakness, headaches, depression, diarrhea, vomiting, and other symptoms."
"Hormone-sensitive condition such as breast cancer, uterine cancer, ovarian cancer, endometriosis, or uterine fibroids: Boron might act like estrogen. If you have any condition that might be made worse by exposure to estrogen, avoid supplemental boron or high amounts of boron from foods."

– HIN Boron Factsheet for Consumers https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Boron-Consumer/
– NIH Boron Factsheet for Professionals https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Boron-HealthProfessional/

The last 2 articles also include links to other useful related articles. Luckily, I eat prunes for digestive reasons (a-hem: helps keep me regular) and I love avocados. I'm confident that I'm getting enough dietary boron.

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Thank you for those links! I ordered some boron online and will try it immediately. Anything that can help arthritis pain and my increasing osteopenia is worth a chance! I will start slowly and increase up to 20 mg. I think.

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@anniebrook

Yes I have major back pain too and again the pain clinic just puts shot's in there and/or a an ablation on the nerves.

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Yes I’ve done both and had no relief from the shots, only relief from the first ablation then nothing from the next two.

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@ga29

@parrotqueen thanks for the tip, I would like to try it. I just had back fusion on my lumbar and I think after 3 1/2 weeks that it is going to be successful. I am very hopeful, but I also have a lot of arthritis pain particularly in my hands. I also overdid the nsaids and I can’t take them anymore. Can you tell me do you buy yours at a health food store or over the Internet? Does it cause you any stomach indigestion? I find taking calcium and some vitamins really upset my stomach.

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was the post surgery very painful ?

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@anniebrook

was the post surgery very painful ?

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Yes, pretty intense for the first week, but I'm 4 weeks today, much better. So far I am very thankful I had the fusion. Slow and steady, just walking for therapy and hamstring stretching as my friend who is a PT told me that's very important. In a few weeks I expect they will tell me to get PT.

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@anniebrook Erosive osteoarthritis is a subset that principally affects hands and fingers. It may be associated with general osteoarthritis, or occur by itself.

I have found that topical NSAID gel or cream (Voltaren or Diclofenac, for example) is helpful in easing pain without taking the meds internally over a long period of time. Other soothing treatments can include heat or ice – I like a paraffin hand bath when I ache. Steroid injections also work, but if you choose to have one, it may delay surgery because the presence of steroids inhibits healing, so there is a waiting period.

As to your question about who to consult, the Rheumatologist can evaluate your condition, but the hand surgeon (a specialty certification that can either be sought by a plastic surgeon or an ortho surgeon) can operate on it if warranted – you may wish to see each of them.

You do need to act sooner rather than later, though. The swelling on the back of the wrist may well be related to your erosive osteoarthritis – a condition my best friend and I both have. When my wrist became painful & swollen at age 50, my very wise mother sent me posthaste to the hand surgeon, who monitored if for a time, then performed a carpectomy, removing the worst eroded bones, and scraping others. Now, nearly 20 years later, the wrist is shorter than the other but pain free & functional. I have likewise had successful CMC repairs on both thumbs. My friend was afraid to have surgery, and put up with the condition, using splints and Kinesio tape for 10 years. By the time she sought help, wrist fusion was her only choice.

Good luck seeking treatment, and if you choose surgery, make sure to see a good hand therapist after to regain full use.
Sue

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@lustarr

This all sounds so painful. I have osteoporosis arthritis just about everywhere in my body but my hands have been the latest part ive added to the list. I have trigger fingers on both hands ; mainly the middle and ring fingers and now the thumbs. I’ve been seeing and orthopedic hand surgeon who wants to open those trigger points in my hands basically by the base of those fingers. I’m a tad worrisome about that surgery since I haven’t heard anything about it previously. I just found out that the other knuckle problems in my hands typically the middle knuckle in my thumbs and fingers do not have any repairs or meds to help them. I do take celebrex once an evening for overall degenerative disc and knee problems.
I’d be interested to hear if anyone has any. 1. Insights on the trigger finger surgery and 2. Help with the degenerative knuckle osteoarthritis. Good luck with your erosive arthritis. Prayers.

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@lustarr Welcome to Mayo Clinic Connect. You are looking to connect with people that have experience with trigger finger surgery.

It makes sense you are concerned about surgery, since trigger point surgery is a new concept to you. It is also a new concept to me.

Below I have linked a previous discussion related to trigger fingers. Members @stefspad @pjc820 @artscaping @tyort have previously discussed this topic. You may wish to scroll through the previous discussion and comments for information and/or connect.

– Extreme pain in hands https://connect.mayoclinic.org/discussion/extreme-pain-in-hands/

You are also interested in connecting with members that have experience with degenerative knuckle osteoarthritis. Them above listed members may be able to support you and/or direct you to members/information that may be helpful.

May I ask what kind of a timeline do you have for surgery?

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@parrotqueen

I got that done on my thumbs and it worked brilliantly – nothing to it really. Please do not go hog wild with shots of cortisone into your fingers – it eats the bone up. The BEST thing I have found for arthritis – particularly in my hands – is boron. Boron is a trace mineral and I've been doing a lot of research on it. I've been taking it a little over two years for osteoporosis – but it took ALL of my arthritis pain away! If I feel any pain, I just pop another one. But basically I take 6 mg at breakfast, 6 mg at lunch, 6 mg at dinner, and 6 mg before I go to sleep. You can get it from raisins and prunes and other foods (you can do a search for this) – this is why Ruth Bader Ginsburg ate prunes all the time. You just cannot get enough from prunes to do much good. The upper limit for boron has been set at 20 mg/day – but I have spoken to hundreds of people who are taking 120 mg/day, and they have been taking that dose for years and years (EDS, osteoporosis and arthritis are the main reasons for taking boron). It is hard to find good research about boron – I was able to find some at the NIH (National Institute for Health). Doctors don't know anything about boron. My hand surgeon wanted to do extensive surgery on my hands and I was all set to get it – then I discovered boron. There is no way I am having any more arthritis-related surgery now that I have boron. And it is super cheap.
Good luck to you! Arthritis really hurts – I used to cry myself to sleep with my hands just hurting so bad. Now I can crochet and play piano again. A nutritionist might be able to tell you about boron. It is really hard to find anything about it – and yet people have been using it for hundreds of years for arthritis. This is my third winter without pain and I LOVE it!

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After reading your post on BORON my husband went straight out and got me some. I just took 1x3mg the 1st day to see how I felt then 3x3mgs a day.Not feeling any relief yet so I wondered how long you had taken it before your pain felt less ? Thankyou

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@anniebrook Hi I'm not @parrotquern but have followed her recommdations as I have o.a.all over hands the worse I started of slow and increases to 2in am 2 p.m I noticed then how better I felt I'm doing 3 a.m. @3 p.m and feel none now in my back which for me was the worse outside of hands .So keep taking it been on it now about 2months Haven't taken any pain pills for awhile now She has a lot of knowledge

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@lioness

@anniebrook Hi I'm not @parrotquern but have followed her recommdations as I have o.a.all over hands the worse I started of slow and increases to 2in am 2 p.m I noticed then how better I felt I'm doing 3 a.m. @3 p.m and feel none now in my back which for me was the worse outside of hands .So keep taking it been on it now about 2months Haven't taken any pain pills for awhile now She has a lot of knowledge

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Thanks for your reply! I also ordered boron and just got it three days ago. I took 3 mg capsule for breakfast and dinner. Today’s the third day, I’ve taken two so far. Have not noticed any difference yet but it’s early days!

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@sueinmn

@anniebrook Erosive osteoarthritis is a subset that principally affects hands and fingers. It may be associated with general osteoarthritis, or occur by itself.

I have found that topical NSAID gel or cream (Voltaren or Diclofenac, for example) is helpful in easing pain without taking the meds internally over a long period of time. Other soothing treatments can include heat or ice – I like a paraffin hand bath when I ache. Steroid injections also work, but if you choose to have one, it may delay surgery because the presence of steroids inhibits healing, so there is a waiting period.

As to your question about who to consult, the Rheumatologist can evaluate your condition, but the hand surgeon (a specialty certification that can either be sought by a plastic surgeon or an ortho surgeon) can operate on it if warranted – you may wish to see each of them.

You do need to act sooner rather than later, though. The swelling on the back of the wrist may well be related to your erosive osteoarthritis – a condition my best friend and I both have. When my wrist became painful & swollen at age 50, my very wise mother sent me posthaste to the hand surgeon, who monitored if for a time, then performed a carpectomy, removing the worst eroded bones, and scraping others. Now, nearly 20 years later, the wrist is shorter than the other but pain free & functional. I have likewise had successful CMC repairs on both thumbs. My friend was afraid to have surgery, and put up with the condition, using splints and Kinesio tape for 10 years. By the time she sought help, wrist fusion was her only choice.

Good luck seeking treatment, and if you choose surgery, make sure to see a good hand therapist after to regain full use.
Sue

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Thank you for your input much appreciated. Yesterday I had a phone consult with the pain management Dr,he has been treating me for back pain it seems he thought I only had that. After having had MRI's and the result showing normal for my age( 67) degeneration no one can understand why I have such chronic pain in my back. I went on to ask him to look at the Xrays of my hands also and that I had not heard of 'Erosive' Osteoarthritis I finally plucked up the courage to ask "Do I have Ankylosing Spondylitis" ? and that it's not just the pain that I have other issues such as dry eye/nose/mouth,I have bowel problems too among other issues " I heard a sudden intake of breath when he said this is sounding more like an Inflammatory or Psoriatic arthritis and had I had a work up ? "No don't be silly" I told him at the age of 14 for 2 yrs and again at 28 for a few more yrs I had pustular Psoriasis under my feet that I had to walk virtually of tip toes. I think that might have been a light bulb moment for him. So he is writing to my GP to refer me to a Rheumatologist and to get a blood work up ,hopefully the HLA B27 and maybe now I will get some answers. Thank you to everyone on these pages I am learning a lot about what to say to Dr's and what to demand that I am worth more than "It's your age and it's osteoarthritis there is nothing we can do"

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@anniebrook

Thank you for your input much appreciated. Yesterday I had a phone consult with the pain management Dr,he has been treating me for back pain it seems he thought I only had that. After having had MRI's and the result showing normal for my age( 67) degeneration no one can understand why I have such chronic pain in my back. I went on to ask him to look at the Xrays of my hands also and that I had not heard of 'Erosive' Osteoarthritis I finally plucked up the courage to ask "Do I have Ankylosing Spondylitis" ? and that it's not just the pain that I have other issues such as dry eye/nose/mouth,I have bowel problems too among other issues " I heard a sudden intake of breath when he said this is sounding more like an Inflammatory or Psoriatic arthritis and had I had a work up ? "No don't be silly" I told him at the age of 14 for 2 yrs and again at 28 for a few more yrs I had pustular Psoriasis under my feet that I had to walk virtually of tip toes. I think that might have been a light bulb moment for him. So he is writing to my GP to refer me to a Rheumatologist and to get a blood work up ,hopefully the HLA B27 and maybe now I will get some answers. Thank you to everyone on these pages I am learning a lot about what to say to Dr's and what to demand that I am worth more than "It's your age and it's osteoarthritis there is nothing we can do"

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My goodness, it sounds to me like you have candida overgrowth big time. Please get a book called "The Candida Cure" by Ann Boroch. I got it off Amazon.com – you can get it used or for your kindle. I think if you would do that diet for three months you would see a huge change – the psoriasis and everything would be better. I had brain fog, dizziness, all sorts of weird things and psoriasis is a big sign. For your arthritis, seriously – try Boron. I take 6 mg at breakfast, lunch, dinner and before bed – I have NO PAIN. I can crochet and play piano again and my back, neck, hips – all of it is improved – no pain. It is dirt cheap. If you decide to do the diet, you can message me and I can put you in touch with. private, free support group that has a library of recipes. I've been on the diet for six years. I did it for three months and felt so great, I decided to stay on it. I feel like I'm in my 20s and I'm 70 years old with very serious osteoporosis. The diet was the answer to most of my problems.

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@ga29

Thanks for your reply! I also ordered boron and just got it three days ago. I took 3 mg capsule for breakfast and dinner. Today’s the third day, I’ve taken two so far. Have not noticed any difference yet but it’s early days!

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Also you are only taking a small amount. I take it breakfast, lunch, dinner and bedtime and I take 6 mg.

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