Could it be A Flutter and not A Fib?

Posted by rushhome @rushhome, 3 days ago

So going down another rabbit hole while waiting to see if my new Cardiologist will put me into the REACT clinical trial to get off of Eliquis. When I had my only incident 16 months ago and went to the ER, the nurse (who has been an ER nurse for 23 years) told the attending that he thought I has having A flutter, not A fib. I had no idea what they were talking about but the Dr. basically pointed at the machine and said Afib. The cardioversion was done twice, did not work..then the drip stopped my heart but it restarted and here I am lol! I saw a Cardiologist 4 months later, he ordered the Zio and ultrasound which showed good, strong heart, no rhythm issues..so left me on eliquis and metoprolol until I asked to get off the met and he agreed. Watching Dr. Lees video, now wondering, did the Cardiologist just read the ER docs assessment from the machine (which can be wrong 40-50% of the time), and I have flutter? How do I find out? I know it is a question for the new Dr., but wondered if anyone has gone to an EEP and gotten that news? They would not send me to an EEP when I asked, my burden is not enough. Thanks!

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Assuming you really are in NSR, and pretty darned reliably, your burden is indeed very low, almost but not quite zero. So, from a quality of life standpoint, with you not able to complain about how awful your arrhythmia makes you feel, and with the research saying you need to reach about the 3% burden point before we begin to talk about remedies/amelioration/palliation, I can understand why you haven't been offered an encounter with an EP. Might not be quite what you hoped to see in a reply, but that's this non-expert's view of things as you describe. You're really in pretty good shape, certainly very early if it really is AF, and that's the very best place to be if you simply must be defined as an AP patient. Your AF, if/when it begins to act up to the point where it is intrusive and worrying for you, will be the most easily treated in your 'paroxysmal' stage, which is the name of the first stage of AF.

Flutter is not always easily seen if there is tachycardia going on. Flutter is displayed as several jagged 'sawtooth' peaks, low ones, between the QRS complexes on an ECG. If you google, 'example of ECG showing flutter', you'll see scads of them which make the sawtooth quite obvious. AF, on the other hand, shows no discernible P-wave, that small but clear blip just before the Q-wave. Also, the peak-to-peak, or the distance between the two R-waves, the tallest ones, is all over the place. With AF, it can be quite obvious that the distance between them, as shown on an ECG graphic, is random, some wide, some narrow, and no two back-to-back showing the same time/distance interval. That is why AF is called 'irregularly irregular' as a rhythm. It ain't a rhythm....at all! A 'rhythm' has a cadence we can all follow, but AF has no repeatable 'rhythm'.

A personal story: I am very much an AF patient, but one trip to the ER had the attending internist doubting what was revealed. The nurses all thought it was AF, but he asked me to agree to a dose of adenosine which would slow the heart drastically and improve the resolution of the display above my head for all to see. I agreed, they warned me it would be a 'dreadful' experience, but only lasting maybe 10 seconds, and that it would be over quickly. They were right, you get a sagging feeling of dread, like you're about to die in front of everyone, but he brightly pointed to the monitor and said, 'See? It's flutter.' I don't know if I had had it previously, unbeknownst to me and my cardiologist, or if that was the only time. Whatever, it did respond to metoprolol and I was sent home after a cardioversion...which lasted a whole 4 hours.

How do YOU find out? You request a 12 lead ECG and for it to be read by a cardiologist. It might show healthy NSR. You'd want this to take place when you know you feel something is off. Maybe a Kardia 6L would help you to nail it as an arrhythmia, but that device, not costly, would almost certainly peg AF if that is what is going on at the time.

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Profile picture for gloaming @gloaming

Assuming you really are in NSR, and pretty darned reliably, your burden is indeed very low, almost but not quite zero. So, from a quality of life standpoint, with you not able to complain about how awful your arrhythmia makes you feel, and with the research saying you need to reach about the 3% burden point before we begin to talk about remedies/amelioration/palliation, I can understand why you haven't been offered an encounter with an EP. Might not be quite what you hoped to see in a reply, but that's this non-expert's view of things as you describe. You're really in pretty good shape, certainly very early if it really is AF, and that's the very best place to be if you simply must be defined as an AP patient. Your AF, if/when it begins to act up to the point where it is intrusive and worrying for you, will be the most easily treated in your 'paroxysmal' stage, which is the name of the first stage of AF.

Flutter is not always easily seen if there is tachycardia going on. Flutter is displayed as several jagged 'sawtooth' peaks, low ones, between the QRS complexes on an ECG. If you google, 'example of ECG showing flutter', you'll see scads of them which make the sawtooth quite obvious. AF, on the other hand, shows no discernible P-wave, that small but clear blip just before the Q-wave. Also, the peak-to-peak, or the distance between the two R-waves, the tallest ones, is all over the place. With AF, it can be quite obvious that the distance between them, as shown on an ECG graphic, is random, some wide, some narrow, and no two back-to-back showing the same time/distance interval. That is why AF is called 'irregularly irregular' as a rhythm. It ain't a rhythm....at all! A 'rhythm' has a cadence we can all follow, but AF has no repeatable 'rhythm'.

A personal story: I am very much an AF patient, but one trip to the ER had the attending internist doubting what was revealed. The nurses all thought it was AF, but he asked me to agree to a dose of adenosine which would slow the heart drastically and improve the resolution of the display above my head for all to see. I agreed, they warned me it would be a 'dreadful' experience, but only lasting maybe 10 seconds, and that it would be over quickly. They were right, you get a sagging feeling of dread, like you're about to die in front of everyone, but he brightly pointed to the monitor and said, 'See? It's flutter.' I don't know if I had had it previously, unbeknownst to me and my cardiologist, or if that was the only time. Whatever, it did respond to metoprolol and I was sent home after a cardioversion...which lasted a whole 4 hours.

How do YOU find out? You request a 12 lead ECG and for it to be read by a cardiologist. It might show healthy NSR. You'd want this to take place when you know you feel something is off. Maybe a Kardia 6L would help you to nail it as an arrhythmia, but that device, not costly, would almost certainly peg AF if that is what is going on at the time.

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@gloaming Thanks for the reply. I do have a Kardia and try to take at least one a week. When I had the incidence of the Afib or Flutter it was really obvious to me. I also had the adenosine I believe, felt like I was dying..but that is what put me back into rhythm, 2 cardioversions did not work. The ekg at my first appointment at the cardiologist showed nsr..every kardia reading the same. My new family practice Dr. also said nsr at her visit last month. Am I really an afib patient? Don't know but taking eliquis since it is on the diagnosis page. Will hope the new cardiologist enrolls me in the REACT clinical trial and I can go to pip, it makes no sense to me to be on this constantly if I have no symptoms for so long. I work out, drink coffee, no alcohol, have gotten accidently dehydrated..I have gerd..not like I am tempting fate and not courting a stroke..but ...I believe I have some side effects to the drug and would like to get off at least temporarily to see. I do follow medical advice or would have quit already.

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Profile picture for rushhome @rushhome

@gloaming Thanks for the reply. I do have a Kardia and try to take at least one a week. When I had the incidence of the Afib or Flutter it was really obvious to me. I also had the adenosine I believe, felt like I was dying..but that is what put me back into rhythm, 2 cardioversions did not work. The ekg at my first appointment at the cardiologist showed nsr..every kardia reading the same. My new family practice Dr. also said nsr at her visit last month. Am I really an afib patient? Don't know but taking eliquis since it is on the diagnosis page. Will hope the new cardiologist enrolls me in the REACT clinical trial and I can go to pip, it makes no sense to me to be on this constantly if I have no symptoms for so long. I work out, drink coffee, no alcohol, have gotten accidently dehydrated..I have gerd..not like I am tempting fate and not courting a stroke..but ...I believe I have some side effects to the drug and would like to get off at least temporarily to see. I do follow medical advice or would have quit already.

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@rushhome
My first cardiologist completely missed my AF by simply going by what the computer read out said was AFL! I went to two expert
EPs who reviewed the Ziopatch results snd independently confirmed the AF AND the AFL! So it works both ways.
FYI, my AF/AFL burden was only 2%, and both EPs still recommended a catheter ablation to nip the arrhythmias in the bud.

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Profile picture for thisnthat @thisnthat

@rushhome
My first cardiologist completely missed my AF by simply going by what the computer read out said was AFL! I went to two expert
EPs who reviewed the Ziopatch results snd independently confirmed the AF AND the AFL! So it works both ways.
FYI, my AF/AFL burden was only 2%, and both EPs still recommended a catheter ablation to nip the arrhythmias in the bud.

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@thisnthat Wow! That is scary. It takes so long in between to see these guys..I will be one year now until I meet the new one. The last Dr. was not keen on an ablation as he thought too low a burden, but was open to a Watchman. I asked about doing them at the same time, he said we could talk about it this year. Not having had any attacks in a year maybe the new guy will run a longer Zio or test of some sort. I hear people have had no attacks for 2 or 3 years than have it again, hard to know which way to go. Did you have the ablation?

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Profile picture for rushhome @rushhome

@thisnthat Wow! That is scary. It takes so long in between to see these guys..I will be one year now until I meet the new one. The last Dr. was not keen on an ablation as he thought too low a burden, but was open to a Watchman. I asked about doing them at the same time, he said we could talk about it this year. Not having had any attacks in a year maybe the new guy will run a longer Zio or test of some sort. I hear people have had no attacks for 2 or 3 years than have it again, hard to know which way to go. Did you have the ablation?

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@rushhome
Yes, it is scary how slipshod some docs can be, not to even bother reviewing the ECGs on their own! So important to get second, even third opinions!
I did have the ablation, over 5 years ago. No AF since—a few instances of AT and rate drops, but pretty much NSR ever since (if you don’t count the high PAC burden at times—I got a loop recorder implanted to keep track of the arrhythmias).
My EP had mentioned considering a Watchman device, but I came across some research suggesting it might serve as a nidus for clot formation. So, no thanks!
I felt at the time that a catheter ablation was the best way to avoid a stroke or the possibility of vascular dementia. But it is a big decision, not to be taken lightly.

REPLY
Profile picture for thisnthat @thisnthat

@rushhome
Yes, it is scary how slipshod some docs can be, not to even bother reviewing the ECGs on their own! So important to get second, even third opinions!
I did have the ablation, over 5 years ago. No AF since—a few instances of AT and rate drops, but pretty much NSR ever since (if you don’t count the high PAC burden at times—I got a loop recorder implanted to keep track of the arrhythmias).
My EP had mentioned considering a Watchman device, but I came across some research suggesting it might serve as a nidus for clot formation. So, no thanks!
I felt at the time that a catheter ablation was the best way to avoid a stroke or the possibility of vascular dementia. But it is a big decision, not to be taken lightly.

Jump to this post

@thisnthat it is huge. hoping that i can just go to pill in the pocket on eliquis and call it good. fingers crossed.

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