Blood pressure measurement - automated vs manual method
I am not finding any information on my specific problem, but thought that someone here might understand.
I admit that I'm overweight. My upper arms are quite fleshy and flabby. I have also been a regular blood donor for my entire adult life. I've donated blood about 150 times.
The problem started about 10 years ago. I went to donate blood, as usual. But, for the first time, the donation center was using automated blood pressure machines, rather than the hand-pump and stethoscope method. During the measurement, the machine paused, released some pressure, then increased the pressure enormously - to the point I was almost in tears from the pain. For the first time in my life, I was about to be deferred for high blood pressure. But my blood pressure had always been on the low side, never even approaching a high number The nurse took my BP manually, and it was easily in the normal range. And the difference was not small. The manual method said my BP was something like 107/75, the automated machine said it was something like 185/105.
I continue to have the same problem with automated BP machines. If I go to the doctor's office or to a blood donation site where the machine is automated, the reading is extremely high (after crushing my arm). If my BP is taken manually, it is in a normal range. Again, not a small difference - readings of 180-200 for the upper number with an automatic machine, readings of 115-130 with a manual cuff.
Nobody believes me that this happens, unless I'm in a place where both methods are available. It always surprises practitioners that the automated machine is so inaccurate. Please remember that the practitioner can actually hear my heartbeat with the manual measurement, so it's clearly the automated machine that is wrong. It seems that the automated machines have a hard time detecting my pulse, which is why the machine increases the pressure to the point of extreme pain.
To answer the obvious questions - yes, they use a bigger-sized cuff. Yes, I sit with my feet flat on the floor. Yes, my arm is resting at heart level. No, I'm not talking while the measurement takes place. Yes, I do get frustrated when the person taking my BP doesn't believe me that the machine is wildly incorrect. No, this is not white-coat syndrome, or why would it not appear when I'm about to donate blood?
Fortunately, I can donate blood through the Red Cross, who still uses manual cuffs. If I go to another local blood donation organization, I'm turned away for high BP.
Has anyone else ever experienced this problem with automated BP machines?
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Do you ever consider the idea that the medical staff taking yr BP have a message they want to convey and they are not entirely diligent or particular about accuracy of the reading? Or maybe the staff is just lazy? (Any number entered in the record will work so they can get on with their day.)
This is the same application of energy for a purpose as is RF catheter ablation. In both cases, sufficient energy is focused in an area in order to derive a desired outcome. Phones and watches don't have that purpose...skin tightening or multiple 2mm sized lesions around a pulmonary vein's mouth.
Phones can get warm when being charged. They can get warm when being rapidly discharged, such as when multiple apps are opened and working on a solution of some kind. They all give off electromagnetic radiation, but so does a dial-up phone, your stove top (imagine the electromagnetic radiation from a 1200 watt element on high trying to boil a half-quart of water to boil potatoes!). Lights give off EMR, headphones, wall wiring leading to sockets in which appliances are plugged, etc.
I don’t understand.. You say that low RF energy is focused for ablation or skin tightening, but not focused for cell phones or watches. But with measuring heart rate, blood pressure, sleep patterns RF would have to be aimed or focused and the device is often placed directly on the body, so simply by the location of the device a certain amount of focusing would likely occur, and that focua would likely vary depending on lots of factors. . Does anybody know how much RF is involved to read blood pressure using a smart watch, for example? I suppose the manufacturers of the devices know and they also know that skin irritation is common where such devices are placed on the body. What am I missing?
This has gone far from the discussion topic of manual vs automated blood pressure cuffs, but I will answer just this once. I suggest for those who wish to probe deeper that you start a new discussion specifically on the topic of RF Emission from Smart Watches and other body-worn devices.
You said "I suppose the manufacturers of the devices know and they also know that skin irritation is common where such devices are placed on the body."
Let me say that this is not a new phenomenon, and may have nothing to do with RF/EMF.
Whenever something is worn on the skin, there is a possibility of skin irritation or contact dermatology. I knew many people who were unable to wear wristwatches years ago because the nickel in them caused a skin reaction. When I had my first (not-smart) pedometer, the back was plastic of some sort and caused a rash. Now I wear my (10th???) smart watch it has a larger body than any of my previous ones. I must be careful to keep it loose enough to move on my wrist or the skin gets sweaty & peels.
For the curious, here is an explanation of RF from smart watches. Within the page is a link to a PDF that contains the limits for on-body RF devices. There is a similar table for other devices that are near but not on the body.
https://www.cdc.gov/radiation-health/data-research/facts-stats/wearable-technology.html
For the concerned, one always has the choice to forego such devices.
While watches appear to offer some early warning, their accuracy is still under review ... an AI summary.
"While Samsung Galaxy watches can measure blood pressure, their accuracy is not comparable to a traditional, calibrated blood pressure cuff. The Galaxy Watch's blood pressure feature is more of an estimate or early warning system, particularly after calibration and within a certain range. It's not intended to replace regular measurements with a medical device."
My watches are surprisingly accurate, but they also require calibration once every 28 days. I get a warning three days ahead that it's time to recalibrate.
The problem with the accuracy might be real, and I don't dispute the AI. However, every calibrated watch is using a device that itself might not be fully calibrated/old/just plain wrong that people keep in their homes. In my case, I use two commercial cuffs that agree largely and therefore are consonant with my watch...if/when I calibrate it.
Then, there's the way people wear their watches. Some like them loose, some like them tight, some like the body high on their wrists, some nearer their hands. Some never clean their watch backs and the enclosed sensors, some do every morning...etc.
You probably have seen this article, or one like it: https://learnprotips.com/how-accurate-is-afib-on-samsung-watch/ It is largely in agreement with you, but adds the provisos and confounds that can affect the watch's performance and accuracy. I do know that, as a symptomatic sufferer of AF, and one who always knew when it was happening, my watch always depicted AF accurately when I activated the detection function.
And with that, I will leave the conversation as our monitor has suggested we do for the sake of the OP's specific question.
Sorry. I was and still am a bit confused about what is included in the automated cuff idea. Is the the 24 hour blood pressure monitor in this category? I would think so, and since mine had blue-tooth reporting, it clearly used RF. I understand that there is no cuff on the smart watch bp monitors, so that would be a different category, I assume. Thanks for correcting my thinking about the Philips MCOT. That uses RF to record ECGs, not blood pressure. Patience please. I am learning or trying to. And thanks for the CDC view on non-ionizing RF and the human body. It seems that their jury is out on possible harms to health.
I have had many negative interactions with automated blood pressure machines. I visit a pain clinic every 3-4 months for injections related to my spine and they use automated bp machines and it's always higher than at my family practitioner or my cardiologist. If my bp is over 200/100 the pain clinic will not do my injection. I will have 130/78 a few days before on a manual and then abnormally high on the automated machines. I was told by a doctor in urgent care that the strength of my pulse is low, not the rate of the pulse and the automated machines cannot pick up the correct reading.
I have the exact same problem. i am about 7 lbs overweight, on no medications except a baby aspirin. At my last 3 doctors appointments my bp has been 110-126 sbp with the medical asst/nurse takes it with a manual one. This has happened at 3 different doctor's offices. Yet when i take it at home with an automatic one, it's at 158-165! So i called the manufacturer of the omnron unit i have and they told me that sometimes after a few years, the automatic can read high. ok. so i bought a new unit, another brand. i just took it and that new one says 165! I'm really not sure who or what to believe anymore. I'm going to try to go to my doctor's office tomorrow with machine in hand and see what happens. Good luck.
I have Medicare and BCBS Federal plan. The BCBS play every 2 years gives you a BP monitor.
You must go into your doctor's office, and they do a measurement of your arm. The doctor fills out a form and you send that to BCBS. Based on the measurements your doctor took BCBS then sends you the correct size for your measurements.
It is quite accurate at least compared to other automated devices I have.
Every time I have been in hospital I am hooked up to a automated BP device. It is kind of a pain in the butt as it keeps taking it every hour or so and into the night when sleeping. But they are automated and this is Mayo Jacksonville.