The lowest effective dose, how is it defined?

Posted by megz @megz, Aug 6, 2023

Since starting on 15mg of prednisolone for PMR on 10th May (12wks ago), my sole focus has been to "reduce to the lowest effective dose in the shortest possible time" as per the drug company's directive to minimise side effects and reduce the overall cumulative dosage.

I'm now at 8mg and the pain has returned after practically no pain, It's at tolerable levels but disappointing after having been pain free. I assume I've reached the lowest effective dose, or maybe overshot it by 1mg by reducing so quickly. So what is an "effective" dose?

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@megz

Aha. That's interesting that it took so little to get back to painfree. I'll try similar to what worked for you and try to land on 8.5mg instead of 9. I have three weeks before the doc's appointment to try it out. She may not be happy about me making a slight increase instead of decrease, but will have to settle for the explanation. Going to lift to 9.5mg for two days from tomorrow and see how I go.

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Your doctor should be happy that if you need to be pain free by going up a bit, so be it. Pain is an indicator that your adrenals aren't yet ready to take over. Is she a rheumatologist and if not, is she aware of GCA? Everyone has different thresholds of pain but the thing is, you should not be in pain, period.

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@vellen

Yes. It's a matter of controlling the inflammation (pain) to avoid getting GCA (Giant Cell Arteitis). Then tapering slowly while the body adjusts. Your doctor should explain this. Although 95% of what I've learned about PMR, GCA, and tapering has been from this forum and the internet.

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Thanks for the helpful info. It gives me some hope and encouragement.

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@marymckeith

But DOES it run its own course? Does it improve? Does it release its grip on you at some point?

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PMR is "self-limiting"--meaning, yes, at some time it sets us free. I read that the average duration of disease is 5.9 years, but apparently there are two classes of PMR and some are lighter than others. Here is a short paragraph to read: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4036982/.

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@pkalkstein

PMR is "self-limiting"--meaning, yes, at some time it sets us free. I read that the average duration of disease is 5.9 years, but apparently there are two classes of PMR and some are lighter than others. Here is a short paragraph to read: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4036982/.

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Thanks so much for the information!

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@marymckeith

But DOES it run its own course? Does it improve? Does it release its grip on you at some point?

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Mary- This last spring, I would hsve described my pain as a 20 on a 10 point scale and was ready to cut off my arms or jump off a roof. For six to eight weeks, i have felt very good and am back to my old self. I am ecstatic that I can get in and out of the bathtub so easily as I love baths. I have recently gone to 5 mg and have had no problems titrating down. Late June my crp was down to about 10. Assume it is even lower now. The sed rate started at 20/high normal and in late June was 6. Will see what happens but I am very encouraged.

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@freeme

Mary- This last spring, I would hsve described my pain as a 20 on a 10 point scale and was ready to cut off my arms or jump off a roof. For six to eight weeks, i have felt very good and am back to my old self. I am ecstatic that I can get in and out of the bathtub so easily as I love baths. I have recently gone to 5 mg and have had no problems titrating down. Late June my crp was down to about 10. Assume it is even lower now. The sed rate started at 20/high normal and in late June was 6. Will see what happens but I am very encouraged.

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Thanks so much! I was diagnosed in April and on 20 mg
for two months. It was wonderful. I tried tapering to 17.5 but had to go back to 20 in July. Now I am trying tapering again. Your message was such good news! Today seemed to be a better day for me so eventually I hope I will be as fortunate as you. You give me hope! I love baths and would sure enjoy one.

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@pkalkstein

PMR is "self-limiting"--meaning, yes, at some time it sets us free. I read that the average duration of disease is 5.9 years, but apparently there are two classes of PMR and some are lighter than others. Here is a short paragraph to read: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/4036982/.

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That article is from 1985. Here's one from NHS showing 18-24 months for therapy:
https://www.nhsinform.scot/illnesses-and-conditions/muscle-bone-and-joints/conditions/polymyalgia-rheumatica

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This is a really helpful survey of our disease. The assertions are rather general, though, aren't they?
"Although your symptoms should improve within a few days of starting treatment, you'll probably need to continue taking a low dose of prednisolone for about two years."
It's different for all of us. It would be interesting to see a study of the different durations of disease (as opposed to prednisone therapy) and perhaps we might get closer to understanding the cause of PMR.

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The start dose for PMR varies from country to country with the US most often starting at 20mg and Australia, where I am, starts at 15mg. An Italian study (2011) found that 78% of people started on 12.5mg responded well, but effectiveness depended on the weight of the person with heavier people needing to start on 15mg.
I can't yet post links. Title is "The correct prednisone starting dose in polymyalgia rheumatica is related to body weight but not to disease severity".

I think I would have struggled more with the reductions above 10mg if started on a higher dose. Also, I ignored the directive to stay on 15mg for a month, knowing that in the first 2-3wks of prednisolone treatment the dose can be reduced more quickly without adverse effects. So I dropped as much as I could in those first 2-3wks (15mg down to 11.5mg) to get a head start on reductions.

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@megz

The start dose for PMR varies from country to country with the US most often starting at 20mg and Australia, where I am, starts at 15mg. An Italian study (2011) found that 78% of people started on 12.5mg responded well, but effectiveness depended on the weight of the person with heavier people needing to start on 15mg.
I can't yet post links. Title is "The correct prednisone starting dose in polymyalgia rheumatica is related to body weight but not to disease severity".

I think I would have struggled more with the reductions above 10mg if started on a higher dose. Also, I ignored the directive to stay on 15mg for a month, knowing that in the first 2-3wks of prednisolone treatment the dose can be reduced more quickly without adverse effects. So I dropped as much as I could in those first 2-3wks (15mg down to 11.5mg) to get a head start on reductions.

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Hi @megz, I can post the link for you but the problem is that it is old information (2011) and I think it's changed some --- The correct prednisone starting dose in polymyalgia rheumatica is related to body weight but not to disease severity: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21569559/.

Here is some updated information from 2023 and 2022:
--- Treat-to-target recommendations in giant cell arteritis and polymyalgia rheumatica: https://ard.bmj.com/content/early/2023/02/23/ard-2022-223429
--- Polymyalgia rheumatica: An updated review: https://www.ccjm.org/content/87/9/549

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