I seem to find myself between a rock and a hard place

Posted by diverjer @diverjer, Oct 11 6:11pm

Now I seem to find myself between a rock and a hard place! I been taking AREDS2 supplements for 12 years for immediate AMD.
Studies have shown that taking more than 75 mg of supplemental zinc daily is associated with a higher risk of developing aggressive or lethal prostate cancers. And AREDS2 has more than 75 mg of Zinc may be associated with a higher risk of developing aggressive or lethal prostate cancers.
Well my ADRES2 I take for AMD has 80 mg zinc and 180mg of vitamin E.
Also, clinical trials, including the SELECT trial, noted that high-dose vitamin E supplementation can slightly increase the overall risk of prostate cancer in certain men.
Now with my pathology report from prostate removal at a higher risk for recurrence I don't need to stimulate progression.
Then AREDS2 is the gold standard for immediate AMD.
What a mess. Heck from some of my research in the last 10 minutes the AREDS2 could have caused the prostate cancer or at least made it more aggressive.

Interested in more discussions like this? Go to the Prostate Cancer Support Group.

In MHO having just 5 mg more of Zn can not possibly make much difference.
Vit. E - it is much higher dose than daily recommended dose but again, I do not think it is a HUGE driver of anything in general at 180.
Don't forget that we poop or pee most of vitamin supplements out.
Lastly, you can find separate formulation that does not have Zn or vit E in those amounts and as far as I know those 2 last vitamins that are listed in your supplement are the most important ones for eye health in general.
Talk to your doctors ( PC and eye ) and see what they think.

All the best 🍀 : )))

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Profile picture for surftohealth88 @surftohealth88

In MHO having just 5 mg more of Zn can not possibly make much difference.
Vit. E - it is much higher dose than daily recommended dose but again, I do not think it is a HUGE driver of anything in general at 180.
Don't forget that we poop or pee most of vitamin supplements out.
Lastly, you can find separate formulation that does not have Zn or vit E in those amounts and as far as I know those 2 last vitamins that are listed in your supplement are the most important ones for eye health in general.
Talk to your doctors ( PC and eye ) and see what they think.

All the best 🍀 : )))

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@surftohealth88
Thanks, I have sent a message to oncologist asking what he thinks. Also, found that there is a AREDS3 out with lots less zinc and added several B vitamins. Will have to research that.

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As with any pharmaceutical, there’s always a choice that involves weighing trade-offs between benefits and harms associated with treatments for any disease.

Prostate cancer just happens to be one of the few diseases that we actually study in-depth and research, so we’re just more aware of contraindications and drug interactions than we otherwise would be.

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Oncologist wasn't much help with any suggestions on stopping ADRES2, actually note below came from RN, doubt doctor even seen what I sent. Also, there response doesn't go along with studies I found. Guess I will try the retina specialist for other options.
Response:
There is currently no definitive link between long term/high dose zinc supplementation being linked to prostate cancer, if you have not been told you need to take a higher dose vitamin E or zinc supplement you may switch to taking a lower dose supplement or stop if you prefer.

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Profile picture for diverjer @diverjer

Oncologist wasn't much help with any suggestions on stopping ADRES2, actually note below came from RN, doubt doctor even seen what I sent. Also, there response doesn't go along with studies I found. Guess I will try the retina specialist for other options.
Response:
There is currently no definitive link between long term/high dose zinc supplementation being linked to prostate cancer, if you have not been told you need to take a higher dose vitamin E or zinc supplement you may switch to taking a lower dose supplement or stop if you prefer.

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@diverjer There's no contradiction. Studies discover correlations all the time, but almost all of them end up being accident and meaningless. It takes a lot of work to establish causation, and most efforts fail.

So rest assured: the RN or oncologist is absolutely right. The studies you were looking at mean nothing more than "here's an interesting coincidence: let's keep an eye on it in future research," NOT "zinc causes prostate cancer."

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Called retina specialist and his staff returned call quickly. Suggested some alternatives vitamins that they use if zinc is a problem. I guess zinc in those high amounts affect some people's stomach and caused diarrhea. Also, messaged my RO at KUMC a center of excellence. They suggested same thing, cut back on zinc with another product and will have a 30 minute phone appt Thursday with me.

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Profile picture for brianjarvis @brianjarvis

As with any pharmaceutical, there’s always a choice that involves weighing trade-offs between benefits and harms associated with treatments for any disease.

Prostate cancer just happens to be one of the few diseases that we actually study in-depth and research, so we’re just more aware of contraindications and drug interactions than we otherwise would be.

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@brianjarvis
True, I just wish I knew this information up front. Seems like oncologist would know these things. I get a lot of this kind of information from a PA who gives me their emails. The emails are overloaded with many new studies and information to get continued education credits.
Later I did get a message from local oncologist suggesting I talk to retina specialist about going to Areds3 which has 50mg a day, so he did sit down and do some research later in the day. Pretty interesting how something like that can cause problems, would be hard for a doctor to keep up on all the studies. Then again, I guess that part of the job. I had to do it in the IT world.

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I always keep in mind that doctors (and medical teams) are human beings, not gods; they’re just people like you and me. They are working in an occupation for which they have an aptitude and passion for; but, they’re not perfect; they’re human, with human frailties; they sometimes make errors or simply don’t know something. No different than you or I who were very good in our individual careers and the teams we worked with, but we weren’t perfect. (I was a computer scientist developing avionics systems. Although (I’d like to think that) I was very, very good at what I did, there was no way that I knew everything.)

Physicians also have personal lives to live, spouses, vacations to take, student loans to pay off, and on and on and on……

Whatever they tell you, accept it with some cautious and informed skepticism (and optimism).

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Profile picture for brianjarvis @brianjarvis

I always keep in mind that doctors (and medical teams) are human beings, not gods; they’re just people like you and me. They are working in an occupation for which they have an aptitude and passion for; but, they’re not perfect; they’re human, with human frailties; they sometimes make errors or simply don’t know something. No different than you or I who were very good in our individual careers and the teams we worked with, but we weren’t perfect. (I was a computer scientist developing avionics systems. Although (I’d like to think that) I was very, very good at what I did, there was no way that I knew everything.)

Physicians also have personal lives to live, spouses, vacations to take, student loans to pay off, and on and on and on……

Whatever they tell you, accept it with some cautious and informed skepticism (and optimism).

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@brianjarvis All important points. And since there are studies showing correlations between dozens (hundreds?) of foods and every type of cancer, oncologists wisely apply a mental filter and simply ignore most of the early studies until they pass a certain threshold of accumulated evidence.

It's probably changed by now, but I remember that Dr Walsh's book said that the only consumable that had a fairly certain causal link with prostate cancer (not yet proven, but increasingly likely) was excessive consumption of preserved meats. I expect that they're keeping an eye on one or two other consumables these days, but it would be a waste of their time to pay attention to every little study that showed up a possible correlation with something, because 99.9% of them won't amount to anything.

That's not to say diet doesn't matter with prostate cancer, of course. Aside from limiting hot dogs or other prepared/perserved meats to special occasions like family get-togethers and church picnics (or at least not every day), we have to consider that long-term ADT significantly raises our risk of type-2 diabetes, heart disease, and osteoporosis, and plan diets that are suitable for a person with those risks.

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I think that we should always keep in mind that the biggest promoter of developing PC is - age.
So, for anybody over 65 the "age factor" is the biggest "risk factor" and "cause" of PC. Over 66% of all PC are diagnosed in men over 65. Autopsy shows even bigger percentage and the % grows even further with age after that.

Cigarette smoking is well known and well documented cause of many cancers and guess what - only about 15 % life long smokers develop lung cancer.

So, extra 5 mg of zinc is really not going to be major promoter of PC IMHO.

In regard to MOs - their knowledge is concentrated and limited to cancer treatments and not prevention, especially if they are not involved in that kind of research. With all kind of real and dangerous carcinogenic substances around, Zn would really be very low on the list if at all especially in normal amounts. There are much worse contenders in our water, air and food and environment in general.

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