How do we distinguish mini flares from total exacerbation?
Kelly Kat
Thanks for reinforcing the protocols, especially during exacerbations. I
I have had almost chronic pneumonia for two years and have been treated with all kinds of antibiotics. Had surgeries for Hernia and sinuses to rule out sources of bacteria
This was an incredibly tough year and after each surgery pneumonia came back again. During the past year, my pneumonia also caused necrosis of my upper right lobe and cavitation, and Be progressed from one lung to three multifocal. And that happened, even after all these surgeries which were designed to remove the possible contributing issues.
Finally, Ucla has put me on an airway clearance protocol and withdrawn, antibiotics even though I have at least some mac, aspergillus and SSNA they want to try air clearance only so I don’t get immunity to all the antibiotics
Two questions
Do you really feel in all your experience that air clearance will stop the progression of the VE to other lobes and places . This has been very scary because I don’t see anything getting better despite all the antibiotics and surgeries
I want to hang onto the protocols as the last bastion of protection. Do we have documentation of that? Has anyone died despite regular ACT
My second question is really pivotal to those of us who have had exacerbations or flares as they are called
I have a great deal of difficulty determining what is just a daily fluctuation in my symptoms versus a real flare
Even during the worst phase of pneumonia, I had no fever, no respiratory symptoms. I only had muscle pain, severe weakness and unsteady gate, which caused a lot of falls.
So they did a bunch of x-rays and a CT scan and figured out it was pneumonia.
I was hospitalized about a year ago for treatment, but I left after one day because there were so almost no doctors and pulmonologist anywhere in sight
So getting back to the question of exacerbation, how do you know when you’re having one if you don’t have all of the symptoms, including fever, chills, cough, chest pain, etc.
I do have almost constant green sputum, which comes during hand after I do my ACT
Some days it gets worse and I see more green mucus other days there is less green mucus, but I can’t be sure there’s a correlation two other symptoms
I will feel great for a week or two reach a good level of fitness walking 2 miles and then all of a sudden I will feel like I can’t walk and I’m going to collapse. This cycle has repeated itself often on for almost 2 years
It’s so critical to determine if this is a flare or just a temporary mini variation. Yes sometimes I start to feel better on my own, but other times it has gotten very serious
we need to take immediate action and have a communication system in place and a back up plan for suspected flares
How can you wait five days before you can contacting your doctor?
How do you know that a course of antibiotic treatmentis even working unless you do labs and x-rays and CT scans on a regular basis
I mean monthly and probably more when you’re feeling sick
All of you seem to do just fine with your airway clearance, regimens and exercise, but there has been very little discussion of exacerbation how to detect them and not just assume they are normal fluctuations
All my treatment has been at Ucla
The doctors are fabulous, but I’m not sure they know much about Be , even my P Pulmo
I think it should be a goal of this group to have an action plan when symptoms worsen. Waiting to contact your doctor for days weeks or even months is not going to keep you alive if you have a serious pneumonia.
Does anybody agree with this?
Sorry for being so long winded but I’ve been thinking a lot about this during the last few days and I feel there’s been very little attention paid by the group to this very
Lost in Los Angeles Jill
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This is a very good topic and question to bring up, Jill. You are really going through it. My experience is not as severe but I have had the same question and learned some things that changed my approach.
I had two exacerbations in the last few months. Both were discovered with very mild scratchy throat, fatigue and somewhat more coughing and sputum. Both times I was swabbed by my BE docs and each one came back positive for a different virus. I was prescribed a quick taper of Prednisone both times since I also had wheezing, and Prednisone resolved it. The first time happened to be a couple days after the regular CT scan and they could see increased inflammation.
I really did not understand until these experiences how important it is to reach out to the docs even when symptoms are relatively mild. In my pre-BE life I would have just ridden out a mild cold, which is what these felt like. But with BE, if you've got doctors who are familiar with BE, they want to do everything possible to help you prevent or slow any progression and that includes assessing exacerbations quickly, treating if necessary, and making sure you & they are following up.
I really can't stress this enough: don't try to ride it out. Let your doctor know. This was a new insight for me.
I attached here a screenshot of the more precise and generally used definition and criteria for an exacerbation.
It comes from this article:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7121148/
I wish you the best in struggling to manage this beast of a condition.
I asked my doctor to put in a standing order for sputum samples at my local lab. This way I can take a sputum sample anytime and have it tested. It eliminates me having to make appointments with the doctor every time I feel like I am getting an exacerbation of symptoms. I also get treated quicker with the antibiotic and i get better quicker because I am able to stay on top of it like this.
I always have a problem deciding if it’s exacerbation and react or wait. But I also understand if your respiratory culture comes negative but you have a virus ( now they swab only for three not like before for the whole panel) you will not get an antibiotic. Am I correct. My doctor does not give standing order for a culture. Besides most of the time I would get sick , guess when, on the weekend or holiday and had to wait to contact any doctor.
@jillcrawford I think distinguishing between the two takes each person several years of learning their own body and the stage of their disease. In my case, it was thrust upon me by the great pandemic in 2020. I had just stopped antibiotic therapy and involuntarily changed pulmonologist. My ID doc was assigned to the hospital for the duration and unavailable. I was NERVOUS!
The first time I got a respiratory infection, I had a virtual visit with my new pulmonologist - she wasn't even set up for video yet, so was just a calming voice on the end of the phone. Her approach was to ask "What does this feel like? Is it the general tiredness, achiness, runny nose, etc of a cold or is it more severe? Did you have a negative Covid test? Is it in your lungs or you head? Do you have a fever or nausea?"
Then she offered this advice "If it feels like a cold, rest, drink extra fluids, double up on your nebs - levalbuterol, budesonide and saline, and your airway clearance for 3 days. If it is no worse, continue for a week. If it is worse, call me & I will prescribe predisone and an antibiotic." It worked - it was a cold, and went away.
The next time, it was a true exacerbation - I felt it in my lungs first and started precautionary treatment right away. When I called her, she ordered the prednisone and an antibiotic, told me to wait 3 days to see if I improved and start them, or start immediately if I got worse. I got worse, got tested for Covid (negative), went through the round of meds and had to call again - she repeated the treatment with a different broad spectrum antibiotic and it worked. That was in late 2020, and was my last serious exacerbation.
After the office reopened, we met, she changed up my asthma meds, and we put the "plan" into my records with standing orders for the meds in case a different doc was covering for her. She also told me to take them along when we travel, and start them according to plan if I could not contact her.
My pulmonologist has now retired and I have a care team of two great pulmonologists. We have the same plan in place, and we have used it once - last year when I had Covid, and it was mostly a precaution.
I strongly urge everyone to make a plan with their docs.
Please note, at no place in this is a sputum culture - when in an active exacerbation, waiting is not the answer. But after the antibiotics I am supposed to submit my 3 samples.
@liliana Why won't your doc issue a standing order for sputum cultures? I have had them for years.
Hi Jill. Here is a bronchiectasis action plan that might be helpful. Good luck to you.
https://www.bronchiectasisandntminitiative.org/Portals/0/DownloadsLibrary/Files/ActionPlanEnglish.pdf
Thank you… helpful
Will try that
Thank you all I hope my doctor agrees to cooperate. He sort of old school but otherwise very good. I am going to copy your advice and show it to him if that’s OK regards, Jill.
Just to add to this excellent advice—something my pulmonologist once told me: Our lungs are constantly taking things in and out as we breathe, much like how smells travel through the air. One day we might feel worse (like with increased sputum), and the next we might feel better. That’s why it’s so important to step up our routine at the first sign we might be coming down with something.
Stealing this for the ABC's of Mac & Bronch discussion! Thank you.