Can degenerative disc disease be helped by fusion really?

Posted by annie1 @annie1, 4 days ago

I have a lot of things wrong with my spine including DDD, stenosis and spondylosis. The spondylosis is not that big a grade only grade one. However many surgeons have told me I need fusion but then my pain management doctor who's European and doesn't have as anything invested in doing surgery thinks that degenerative disc disease can't really be helped by fusion and in particular my case. Has anyone had help from getting fusion for symptoms and their legs from DDD or stenosis? I don't have symptoms in my back only my legs. My legs throb. Thanks for any information.

Interested in more discussions like this? Go to the Spine Health Support Group.

as a child in the 50s s, , basically an infection in my bones, apparently my family didn't know. I know now. at 68 and retired from the medical field I've had fusion at c 5-5-7 also lumbar 3,4 herniated and L-5 exploded and is gone, 11 wks. ago fell on my butt and am trying to recover from a L-1 compression fracture, no surgery, no walk again. kind expert on back pain if you have a GOOD NEUROSURGEON, and huts beyond belief, go ahead, be careful things are probably going to get worse. good night,, and good luck

REPLY
Profile picture for doggiediamond @doggiediamond

as a child in the 50s s, , basically an infection in my bones, apparently my family didn't know. I know now. at 68 and retired from the medical field I've had fusion at c 5-5-7 also lumbar 3,4 herniated and L-5 exploded and is gone, 11 wks. ago fell on my butt and am trying to recover from a L-1 compression fracture, no surgery, no walk again. kind expert on back pain if you have a GOOD NEUROSURGEON, and huts beyond belief, go ahead, be careful things are probably going to get worse. good night,, and good luck

Jump to this post

@doggiediamond
Thank you for your honesty. Did you mean be careful and that things can get worse with fusion? I've been told that and I've been reading that from people on Reddit. Some have been helped. And how do you determine who is a good neurosurgeon? There's not many surgeons whose reviews are bad. It seems like the only way you can really find out if is hearing from someone directly who had surgery with them and that's not easy to find. But what did you mean by good luck because are you saying fusion isn't going to help?

REPLY

Im an Orthopedic RN and I too havr a screwed up spine due to Ehlers Danlose Syndrome. NO , a fusion doesn't reverse or prevent degeneration. In some cases it's the only way to open up the space between the vertebrae that collapsed due to different factors and is inpinging those nerves which caused pain. Before you decide to have a fusion PLEASE look at other options. Fusion or any spinal surgery should be the last resort. I'll list other options to discuss with your surgeon. 1) I believe that Neurosurgeons are. Better

REPLY

I haven't been told of options besides fusion except injections which I did that have not stopped the throbbing after I walk. Also, acupuncture which didn't help, ablation which I tried once and didn't help. I asked again if I could do ablation again and was told it wouldn't help me. It seems they are hellbent on doing surgery or just injections. I would love to hear any suggestions you have. I am in NYC area with many spine surgeons. Can you recommend a neurosurgeon ? I would travel if it meant having a surgeon I trusted. Someone recommended a surgeon at Northwestern that I am going to look into. Thanks

REPLY

annie1, fusion helps with DDD because it removes the disc. It will prevent spondylosis or lithesis at the fused levels. You sacrifice flexibility and relieve a majority of the pain. The artificial discs seem like a better bet because you retain more flexibility. And the success rates are high.
If I were looking at surgery, I'd post my location here and ask this group who the good and the other surgeons are. If you look on the internet you can find unscreened opinions, but you can look at number of surgeries. I always look at publications for someone who is focused on my issue. The disc surgeries are newer than fusion, so you want someone experienced. It is so difficult to make these decisions while in pain. Difficult to even do the research. If you have copies of your MRIs you can send them out. Bless your search.
I've seen and heard excellent results from this doctor https://www.rasoulispine.com/thepractice
Anyone else out there with a Surgeon to recommend?

REPLY
Profile picture for annie1 @annie1

I haven't been told of options besides fusion except injections which I did that have not stopped the throbbing after I walk. Also, acupuncture which didn't help, ablation which I tried once and didn't help. I asked again if I could do ablation again and was told it wouldn't help me. It seems they are hellbent on doing surgery or just injections. I would love to hear any suggestions you have. I am in NYC area with many spine surgeons. Can you recommend a neurosurgeon ? I would travel if it meant having a surgeon I trusted. Someone recommended a surgeon at Northwestern that I am going to look into. Thanks

Jump to this post

@annie1
I didn't realize my post even went through because it dropped when I was still typing . I didn't have a chance to correct my TypeOoooos.
Since you've already gone through the nerve blocks and RFA's without any improvement the other two options are:
1) a spinal cord stimulator . They do a trial where they put the two wire leads "near" your spinal cord. The bare wire is whats under your skin. Then the coated part of the wire leads come through to the surface of your skin and those wires plug into a battery /controller
that you wear like fanny pack. The reason you need to do this trial is to make sure the leads are in the right place so when the unit is transmitting electrical pulses through the wires you will be able to tell if the leads are in rhe right place and if you are getting any pain relief. The controller can adjust the intensity of the electric pulses to make it higher or lower. Sometimes your neurosurgeon or "pain dr" ( usually an anesthesologist) will need to move the leads to a different area if you arent getting any relief. Beluve me you will know right away. My pain dr actually had to move the leads three times before he got it in the right area ( another reason why you'll want to have a neurosurgeon or even a neurologist do this). Then when they are Positive of the location then they take the wire leads and move them next to your spinal cord. They place a small controller inside your body usually towards tbe front someewhere between your groin and hip, so the wires from your spinal cord will attach to the small controller in the front. You will be able to adjust the intensity from an APP. Things have changed since I did this so hopefully its easier now. I know several patients that got good pain relief from a SCS for many years.

Unfortunately my body was too sensitive to any metal that is placed inside of me so the SCS didnt work for me. The one issue most people who have a SCS is that it only works for a certain period of time. That time frame varies depending on the severity of the nerve inpingment and the age of the patient.

Option 2)
There is a spinal procedure called the INTRACEPT. It was developed by Boston Scientific in Boston MA
Google them and watch their videos on what it is and why it works better than RFA's. Basically it is a MEGA and More Aggressive form of an RFA. The procedure is done between your vertebrae where the nerve meets your spinal cord. The Intracept procedure is more permanent because of where it is done and how it is done. Its a lot more aggressive but its still consudered Non Invasive because it's not considered a surgery. The results are amaizing. From what I have read 1/2 of these patiens get at least a 50% reduction in pain. Then the next group get 75% reduction in pain. The remaining group get between 75%- 95% reduction in pain. I am actually going to have this procedure done myself because nothing else has worked . Its worth doing because most spine surgerys only have a 50% success rate. Obviously the percentage varies a little depending on what type of spine surgery you have.Microdiscetonomy or a laminectomy etc...
..
So I hope I answered your questions about your options. I am. Not trying to put sldown any Pain managrment specialist who are anesthesiologist because many of them are very good. At least any doctor who does the Intracept procedure is required to be certified by Boston Scientific snd go through their training program first. On their website they have a list of the doctors in your area who they trained and they certified. You can also call them if you have any questions.

Regarding NY area, I'm born and raised in CA. I know all the medical schools and major hospitals on the west coast. I also know the best orthopedic and neuro surgeons at those facilities. So if anyone needs a referal on the west coast contact me. I'm sorry I can't be more help on the east coast. Boston Scientific is a good place to start. I wish you well and a pain free future.

REPLY
Profile picture for gently @gently

annie1, fusion helps with DDD because it removes the disc. It will prevent spondylosis or lithesis at the fused levels. You sacrifice flexibility and relieve a majority of the pain. The artificial discs seem like a better bet because you retain more flexibility. And the success rates are high.
If I were looking at surgery, I'd post my location here and ask this group who the good and the other surgeons are. If you look on the internet you can find unscreened opinions, but you can look at number of surgeries. I always look at publications for someone who is focused on my issue. The disc surgeries are newer than fusion, so you want someone experienced. It is so difficult to make these decisions while in pain. Difficult to even do the research. If you have copies of your MRIs you can send them out. Bless your search.
I've seen and heard excellent results from this doctor https://www.rasoulispine.com/thepractice
Anyone else out there with a Surgeon to recommend?

Jump to this post

@gently
All the surgeons I've spoken to either here in New York, one at Stanford in California and one in Boston all say I need fusion. None of them have ever offered artificial discs. None. I don't even know how to go about finding someone who would do that. Do you know? I also have stenosis and spondylosis ill that help with those things?

REPLY
Profile picture for gently @gently

annie1, fusion helps with DDD because it removes the disc. It will prevent spondylosis or lithesis at the fused levels. You sacrifice flexibility and relieve a majority of the pain. The artificial discs seem like a better bet because you retain more flexibility. And the success rates are high.
If I were looking at surgery, I'd post my location here and ask this group who the good and the other surgeons are. If you look on the internet you can find unscreened opinions, but you can look at number of surgeries. I always look at publications for someone who is focused on my issue. The disc surgeries are newer than fusion, so you want someone experienced. It is so difficult to make these decisions while in pain. Difficult to even do the research. If you have copies of your MRIs you can send them out. Bless your search.
I've seen and heard excellent results from this doctor https://www.rasoulispine.com/thepractice
Anyone else out there with a Surgeon to recommend?

Jump to this post

@gently
Okay I did get one recommendation in New York City where I am and I have an appointment with him.
I'm looking for other recommendations in New York or even anywhere on the East Coast or even as far as Chicago.

REPLY

annie1 https://www.nyspine.com/orthopedic-services/total-disc-replacement/
hi, it is usually damage to the disc that allows the vertebrae to slip forward, so removing the disc and fusing or replacing the disc should solve that issue. It may be that the surgeons you consulted aren't practiced in artificial disc surgery or that it wouldn't advantage your situation. I'm not familiar with the linked service above, but if you google artificial discs, you'll find more surgeons.

REPLY
Profile picture for kitkatrn @kitkatrn

@annie1
I didn't realize my post even went through because it dropped when I was still typing . I didn't have a chance to correct my TypeOoooos.
Since you've already gone through the nerve blocks and RFA's without any improvement the other two options are:
1) a spinal cord stimulator . They do a trial where they put the two wire leads "near" your spinal cord. The bare wire is whats under your skin. Then the coated part of the wire leads come through to the surface of your skin and those wires plug into a battery /controller
that you wear like fanny pack. The reason you need to do this trial is to make sure the leads are in the right place so when the unit is transmitting electrical pulses through the wires you will be able to tell if the leads are in rhe right place and if you are getting any pain relief. The controller can adjust the intensity of the electric pulses to make it higher or lower. Sometimes your neurosurgeon or "pain dr" ( usually an anesthesologist) will need to move the leads to a different area if you arent getting any relief. Beluve me you will know right away. My pain dr actually had to move the leads three times before he got it in the right area ( another reason why you'll want to have a neurosurgeon or even a neurologist do this). Then when they are Positive of the location then they take the wire leads and move them next to your spinal cord. They place a small controller inside your body usually towards tbe front someewhere between your groin and hip, so the wires from your spinal cord will attach to the small controller in the front. You will be able to adjust the intensity from an APP. Things have changed since I did this so hopefully its easier now. I know several patients that got good pain relief from a SCS for many years.

Unfortunately my body was too sensitive to any metal that is placed inside of me so the SCS didnt work for me. The one issue most people who have a SCS is that it only works for a certain period of time. That time frame varies depending on the severity of the nerve inpingment and the age of the patient.

Option 2)
There is a spinal procedure called the INTRACEPT. It was developed by Boston Scientific in Boston MA
Google them and watch their videos on what it is and why it works better than RFA's. Basically it is a MEGA and More Aggressive form of an RFA. The procedure is done between your vertebrae where the nerve meets your spinal cord. The Intracept procedure is more permanent because of where it is done and how it is done. Its a lot more aggressive but its still consudered Non Invasive because it's not considered a surgery. The results are amaizing. From what I have read 1/2 of these patiens get at least a 50% reduction in pain. Then the next group get 75% reduction in pain. The remaining group get between 75%- 95% reduction in pain. I am actually going to have this procedure done myself because nothing else has worked . Its worth doing because most spine surgerys only have a 50% success rate. Obviously the percentage varies a little depending on what type of spine surgery you have.Microdiscetonomy or a laminectomy etc...
..
So I hope I answered your questions about your options. I am. Not trying to put sldown any Pain managrment specialist who are anesthesiologist because many of them are very good. At least any doctor who does the Intracept procedure is required to be certified by Boston Scientific snd go through their training program first. On their website they have a list of the doctors in your area who they trained and they certified. You can also call them if you have any questions.

Regarding NY area, I'm born and raised in CA. I know all the medical schools and major hospitals on the west coast. I also know the best orthopedic and neuro surgeons at those facilities. So if anyone needs a referal on the west coast contact me. I'm sorry I can't be more help on the east coast. Boston Scientific is a good place to start. I wish you well and a pain free future.

Jump to this post

@kitkatrn
I did a trial SCS with the Nevro HFX and didn't do anything for my pain from compressed nerves. You think the Boston scientific is better? Also I called another doctor in New York about trying The STS when they said they wouldn't do it they didn't explain why they didn't think it would work or be safe for me. Maybe because of the osteoporosis? I have to call them back. Also that intercept thing that sounds like it could be dangerous if the doctor doesn't have experience and hasn't done many. Although few things like you said are also dangerous potentially. Hardly anyone in New York I suggested the SDS for me. Actually no one. I had to search it out myself.

REPLY
Please sign in or register to post a reply.