Sinus issues causes Bronchiectasis exacebation?

Posted by ainek @ainekrech, Sep 19, 2023

Hi,
I am having another Bronchiectasis exasperation with a severe cough, along with a high sputum amount.
I nebulize with albuterol 2.5mg/3 mL nebulizer solution and 3% saline three to four times a day depending on time. I use fluticasone propionate 50 mcg/actuation nasla spray for nasal congestion, along with an albuterol 90 mcg/actuation inhaler - 2 puffs every four hours when needed.
The current exasperation has caused my pulmonologist to put me on Doxycycline monohydrate 100 mg and Prednisone 20mg. She would also like me to have a sinus CT scan and see an ENT. I've had two previous sinus surgeries with not much luck. I have a whole in my septum due I think to surgery.
I don't feel that surgery is the answer. I know the difference between a sinus infection/headache, a stress one and a migraine (had a migraine related stroke). Why have surgery when it doesn't help?
I've had Bronchiectasis since 2014 and was on an antibiotic regime for four years. I retired from teaching and was taken off of it. During Covid I taught online and didn't have any health issues.
I now have more exasperations due to being in public again.
I irragate nasal passages also.....
Wondering if anyone else has sinus issues and have found other options for relief besides surgery?
60 year old - Have found that Bronchiectasis is job in of itself!

Interested in more discussions like this? Go to the MAC & Bronchiectasis Support Group.

@liz440

I find Azelastine plus flonase also a great help on the post nasal drip. Right now it is ragweed season where I am and my nasal/dripping symptoms and coughing/sputum have increased like they always do at this time of the year. The sodium chloride 3% is helping with the sinus congestion/headache and in fact since I started using it I have had almost zero sinus headaches as it opens up those passages as well as my lungs (some how?) Again since using sodium chloride 3# and azelastine I am not actually having any exacerbation and I can tell because my breathing is not worse and my heart rate has not increased. I get allergy shots but they have not cured the issue and in past years I have ended up in the hospital from this fall allergy exacerbation problem but so far this year...knock on wood....I am handling it all better (I credit 3% sodium chloride plus 3 x a week azithromycin*not for everyone and problematic re resistance issues.) I also have that vasomotor rhinitis problem which certain smells and weather sets off that contributes to the problem. One doctor told me the sinuses nose and lungs are all one system and so one affects the other. It's a war. ps. my ct scans of sinuses don't show anything really wrong there. I find movement of any kind can set off the nose running coughing etc on some occasions because of increased blood flow to the nose etc. but other times exercise has no negative effect...no rhyme or reason to any of it.

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Liz this "...One doctor told me the sinuses nose and lungs are all one system and so one affects the other..." reminded me of the childhood ditty:
The shin bone's connected to the knee bone,
The knee bone's connected to the thigh bone,
The thigh bone's hip bone
The hip bone's connected to the backbone...
Absolutely all the systems in our bodies are interconnected!
By the way - my friend is sitting here telling me she needs to use both Azalastine and Flonase or her ear plugs up!
I'm glad you are working out the details for yourself!
Sue

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@northernecknancy6

I have a tight muscle structure and mild bronchiectasisMAC. I don't seem to have a lot of mucous to cough up and use the pipe with ball bearings device to keep my lungs strong and my airways clear. I have a tightness at the base of my rib cage that I have often thought was indigestion, gall bladder problem, etc but CT scans don't show any abnormalities (one showed a sluggish gall bladder but no disease). When I was having a problem I thought was a gall bladder attach, my doctor said what relieved the pain and I said heat. That would be in keeping with some kind of fascia problem? In reading about MFR and problems that it helps, I identified strongly with bladder leakage since a teenager when I jumped, coughed too hard, etc. At 85, it is still there and much worse. When I have a respiratory illness, I go through boxes of maximum strength pads! I am going to pursue whether there is a connection to all of this and the relief that MFR could bring.
I have one other question: could MFR therapy be similar to Gua sha. My acupuncturist has used this on my back and it releases lots of little red bumps on the outside of both the left and right sides of my rib cage. I started having this done thinking it would release any toxins related to MAC and bronchiectasis but it is used for releasing unhealthy bodily matter from blood stasis within sore, tired, stiff or injured muscle areas.

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@northernecknancy6 I had not heard of Gua sha, so I looked that up and see that it is scraping the skin with tools and a bit of pressure. That would be a form of superficial fascial release. Yoga stretches and cupping (suction cups) are also types of fascial release. The difference in MFR, is that it is like kneading bread and the therapist's hands are pushing against the barrier of tightness. Imagine that you are kneading bread dough and you push and instead of rolling over, it feels like rubber and has tension. That is what the therapist feels. They hold the pressure against the barrier until it starts to give and melt. What is happening is that the facsia is unwinding itself. Fascia is like a spider web and can stick to itself and get knotted. It is supposed to move and expand and it changes from a semi solid to a liquid form as it restructures itself. When that happens body fluids are able to return and that will flush out any stored waste products in the tissues. I have seen white patches on my skin held tightly, that then are released and become read when circulation is returned. That doesn't stay very long. When you as a patient are familiar with this, you may be able to feel the fascia change. It starts like a little bit of a tingle and you also feel the pressure start to dissolve. If it is a big problem, it can be a bit painful when you begin, but the therapist can adjust to it. You do not want to be aggressive because that can tear the fascia and just recreate more problems, so it takes patience to just wait for the fascia to unwind. This fascia is everywhere in your body and people develop body wide patterns of tightness. Often my therapist releases the respiratory diaphragm at the base of the ribcage near the pelvis.

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@jenniferhunter

@northernecknancy6 I had not heard of Gua sha, so I looked that up and see that it is scraping the skin with tools and a bit of pressure. That would be a form of superficial fascial release. Yoga stretches and cupping (suction cups) are also types of fascial release. The difference in MFR, is that it is like kneading bread and the therapist's hands are pushing against the barrier of tightness. Imagine that you are kneading bread dough and you push and instead of rolling over, it feels like rubber and has tension. That is what the therapist feels. They hold the pressure against the barrier until it starts to give and melt. What is happening is that the facsia is unwinding itself. Fascia is like a spider web and can stick to itself and get knotted. It is supposed to move and expand and it changes from a semi solid to a liquid form as it restructures itself. When that happens body fluids are able to return and that will flush out any stored waste products in the tissues. I have seen white patches on my skin held tightly, that then are released and become read when circulation is returned. That doesn't stay very long. When you as a patient are familiar with this, you may be able to feel the fascia change. It starts like a little bit of a tingle and you also feel the pressure start to dissolve. If it is a big problem, it can be a bit painful when you begin, but the therapist can adjust to it. You do not want to be aggressive because that can tear the fascia and just recreate more problems, so it takes patience to just wait for the fascia to unwind. This fascia is everywhere in your body and people develop body wide patterns of tightness. Often my therapist releases the respiratory diaphragm at the base of the ribcage near the pelvis.

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Thank you for explaining the difference between MFR and Gua Sha. I am not a large person (5'2 - 125 pls) but I am large breasted - and older so they are sagging 🙂 I wonder how the therapist would get to that area to knead the respiratory diaphragm at the base of the ribcage - and I didn't' realize that was near the pelvis. Another question is how often do you see the therapist for the MFR?
Thanks again for your information

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@northernecknancy6

Thank you for explaining the difference between MFR and Gua Sha. I am not a large person (5'2 - 125 pls) but I am large breasted - and older so they are sagging 🙂 I wonder how the therapist would get to that area to knead the respiratory diaphragm at the base of the ribcage - and I didn't' realize that was near the pelvis. Another question is how often do you see the therapist for the MFR?
Thanks again for your information

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@ The therapist will recommend how often they think you should be seen for MFR, and for me that was usually twice a week. Insurance doesn't want to pay for this and there must be a reason for the visits like difficulty breathing, so the therapist does a few other things to code the visit. I have not seen my MFR therapist in a long time and wish I could see her. It's because when you're on Medicare, the primary care doctor has to give you a script and they don't understand this like my spine surgeon does, and it requires an in person visit to get the script. The therapist also has lots of patients and I've been on the wait list, and other issues have come up keeping her out of the office. I've learned enough to be able to do some self treating to help myself, but I can't do everything because my hands can not physically reach everything she can do. Any stretching you can do to address tight muscles on your own can help as long as it is safe for you.

I do things like lay on my side, put a hand on my chest below the collar bone from the side I am laying on, and then roll my weight forward so the palm is pressing in and stretching the pectoral muscles. I let my body weight do the work. I also lay face down on small balls on tight areas of the chest. I also put them in front of my hip flexors or at base of rib cage and lay on several at once.

Did you find an MFR therapy provider that you wish to contact?

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@jenniferhunter

@ The therapist will recommend how often they think you should be seen for MFR, and for me that was usually twice a week. Insurance doesn't want to pay for this and there must be a reason for the visits like difficulty breathing, so the therapist does a few other things to code the visit. I have not seen my MFR therapist in a long time and wish I could see her. It's because when you're on Medicare, the primary care doctor has to give you a script and they don't understand this like my spine surgeon does, and it requires an in person visit to get the script. The therapist also has lots of patients and I've been on the wait list, and other issues have come up keeping her out of the office. I've learned enough to be able to do some self treating to help myself, but I can't do everything because my hands can not physically reach everything she can do. Any stretching you can do to address tight muscles on your own can help as long as it is safe for you.

I do things like lay on my side, put a hand on my chest below the collar bone from the side I am laying on, and then roll my weight forward so the palm is pressing in and stretching the pectoral muscles. I let my body weight do the work. I also lay face down on small balls on tight areas of the chest. I also put them in front of my hip flexors or at base of rib cage and lay on several at once.

Did you find an MFR therapy provider that you wish to contact?

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There is a woman in my area who has a Motion Studio with Gyrotonic equipment. It was developed by a ballet dancer to help dancers maintain their body flexibility, etc. I have seen her several times and am impressed with her knowledge of the body and exercises and stretches that solve some of my problems. I will get with her and see if she has any ideas to deal with fascia release.

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@northernecknancy6

There is a woman in my area who has a Motion Studio with Gyrotonic equipment. It was developed by a ballet dancer to help dancers maintain their body flexibility, etc. I have seen her several times and am impressed with her knowledge of the body and exercises and stretches that solve some of my problems. I will get with her and see if she has any ideas to deal with fascia release.

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@northernecknancy6 That does sound interesting and I do love dance. She may not understand MFR unless she has had specialized training. These are methods developed by John Barnes and physical therapists take hands on courses at his facility and get certified in this therapy. There are listings of providers at https://www.mfrtherapists.com/. If your primary reason for therapy is to improve lung function, you may need a therapist with expert knowledge in medical issues.

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Elaine @ainekrech
You've received good suggestions here and I will add a few.

1. Have you tried 7% saline instead of the 3% in your nebulizer? It takes getting used to but many prefer it.

2, If you are not already, try taking NAC and mucinex with a full glass of water prior to clearing. Sipping on warm/hot water can be helpful also.

3. It seems you are on a lot of albuterol. Maybe you're also treating asthma? Some people prefer levalbuterol, (less shakiness).

4. Try rinsing nose with saline along with budesonide 0.5mg/2mL in the a.m. rinse bottle (script required) instead of Flonase. If that doesn't help with congestion/stuffiness try Xhance (also Rx).

5. Sometimes sinusitis can be exacerbated by reflux/gerd. Sleeping on wedge and avoid food/drink 4 hours before helps. Have you tried a PPI?

6. If you're allergic have you tried allegra to help with congestion? Do you know what you're allergic to?

7. Agree with others - don't treat an exacerbation without a culture

Personally, I would avoid another surgery unless there is some structural issue. Bronchiectasis, sinusitis and GERD/reflux are all connected. One gets bad and they all get bad or worse.

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I hope you have had your sputum checked for NTM?

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@scoop

Elaine @ainekrech
You've received good suggestions here and I will add a few.

1. Have you tried 7% saline instead of the 3% in your nebulizer? It takes getting used to but many prefer it.

2, If you are not already, try taking NAC and mucinex with a full glass of water prior to clearing. Sipping on warm/hot water can be helpful also.

3. It seems you are on a lot of albuterol. Maybe you're also treating asthma? Some people prefer levalbuterol, (less shakiness).

4. Try rinsing nose with saline along with budesonide 0.5mg/2mL in the a.m. rinse bottle (script required) instead of Flonase. If that doesn't help with congestion/stuffiness try Xhance (also Rx).

5. Sometimes sinusitis can be exacerbated by reflux/gerd. Sleeping on wedge and avoid food/drink 4 hours before helps. Have you tried a PPI?

6. If you're allergic have you tried allegra to help with congestion? Do you know what you're allergic to?

7. Agree with others - don't treat an exacerbation without a culture

Personally, I would avoid another surgery unless there is some structural issue. Bronchiectasis, sinusitis and GERD/reflux are all connected. One gets bad and they all get bad or worse.

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Thank you for all the suggestions! I've tried PPI, but worried about bones and other issues. I rarely have acid reflux. If I stick to my diet I do okay.
The strange thing is that I rarely feel congested, everything goes down the back of the throat.
One doctor thought I had asthma so I was on meds for four years, another didn't so I'm off them all together. Feel okay off of them with so many other things.

I see pulmonary next week and will ask these questions.
Thanks Everyone!!

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@suethenanny

I hope you have had your sputum checked for NTM?

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I will ask that question next week! Thank you!

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