My son in law had emergency surgery to me move a piece of the collar bone because his arm was turning purple. He was a gymnast and had built up a lot of muscle to where the blood flow was being restricted.
@coco8 Wow, I'm sorry your son in law needed this surgery, but circulation is important. My circulation is affected by TOS and my hands used to turn blue or purple and get cold to the touch. Just turning my head cuts off circulation. That is better now, but I can see where that type of situation would be made worse by the extra muscle development of being a gymnast. How is you son in law now? How long has it been since his surgery? Did the surgery help, and did it affect his normal functioning? I presume that he had to give up gymnastics by loosing part of a collar bone and the function supporting strength of it.
@coco8 The issues that started were that my shoulder came forward and my back rounded which moved my shoulder blades apart and forward as they supported my shoulders which was happening with TOS. I was working at a high stress computer job and holding my arms up to type while looking at the keys. This is bad posture to sustain day after day. So when the body gets stuck like this, it doesn't take a lot to cause an injury. With one shoulder I had turned around from the driver's seat and grabbed and yanked at something in the back seat which caused a slight tear in the shoulder cartilage. A separate occurence was that my other shoulder became unstable in the forward position and was causing pain when I tried to put on a jacket and scoot my arm into the sleeve. An orthopedic doc did a diagnostic MRI and injected gadolinium into the shoulder joint which caused major inflammation and pain in the joint. Just the amount of movement of breathing hurt the joint and I was in constant pain for about 6 weeks before it started getting better, but I was left with a frozen shoulder and went through PT for that. This was separate from having thoracic outlet syndrome, but it did exacerbate the TOS because of limited movement. Unfortunately he didn't believe that I had TOS and told me it was rare, but It had already been diagnosed a couple years earlier. He even had Doppler studies done which showed decreased circulation in my arms with change of position, then he had no explanation for this.
It was a few years later that I found a thoracic surgeon who understood TOS and could treat it who send me to PT and recommended myofascial release therapy. Usually strength training will kick it up and make things worse with the exception of strengthening the scapula and trying to get them back into position, but that also depends on loosening up muscles of the front of the chest so the muscles attached to the scapula can move back and hold that in place. My back doesn't go out, but when things are too tight it pulls my pelvis forward on one side causing that side of my chest to be too tight and it affects my breathing causing trapped phlegm which can lead to infections. I have allergies too, so I have to try to keep all that at bay. What also really helps strengthen my back and correct my posture is horse back riding, just at a walk because I have to compensate for the horse's movements. I own a horse and enjoy this which does help me a lot. I still go to PT for MFR therapy and have been doing this for about 10 years. I had spine surgery and rehab from an ankle fracture in there too which slowed my progress for TOS.
Wow you have been through a lot with this. Are you able to work with out being in to much pain? What is your pain level if any? How often do you go to PT? I don’t know if my PT for my frozen shoulder was to much & caused the rib and spine to then go out. So odd for me to go from working out at the gym before the shoulder issue to moving the wrong way and being in excruciating pain from my back being unaligned. I will ask a new Dr I am seeing on Friday about the myofascial release therapy. Thank you for sharing your journey!
@coco8 Wow, I'm sorry your son in law needed this surgery, but circulation is important. My circulation is affected by TOS and my hands used to turn blue or purple and get cold to the touch. Just turning my head cuts off circulation. That is better now, but I can see where that type of situation would be made worse by the extra muscle development of being a gymnast. How is you son in law now? How long has it been since his surgery? Did the surgery help, and did it affect his normal functioning? I presume that he had to give up gymnastics by loosing part of a collar bone and the function supporting strength of it.
He is doing much better & it has been about 3 years ago. He does want to go to the Dr. as he is getting some symptoms that I would need to verify what they are. He is in a different state and needs to find a new Dr.
He is doing much better & it has been about 3 years ago. He does want to go to the Dr. as he is getting some symptoms that I would need to verify what they are. He is in a different state and needs to find a new Dr.
@coco8 I had cervical stenosis because the C5/C6 disc collapsed and grew bone spurs into my spinal cord causing compression. I had a whiplash 20 years earlier in a traffic accident, and with aging, the small cracks in the outer fibrous layer of the disc begin to open as the disc dries out, which allows it to herniate. Once that happens it causes inflammation which can cause bone spurs to grow. Spurs also grow in response to uneven pressure on the end plates of the vertebrae in an attempt to stabilize the spine. In my case that was compressing my spinal cord. I was loosing the coordination in my arms which was bad because I am an artist. I also had some unusual symptoms from that and it caused pain all over my body and that connection was missed by the surgeons who saw me locally, so that is what brought me to Mayo Clinic to a surgeon who recognized that the symptoms were related to my spine problem. I had a fusion without hardware 4 years ago. Since C5/C6 doesn't do much at all for turning the head, my movement is the same as it was before with a small exception. I used to be able to tuck my chin and touch my chest which I can't do now, but it is pretty close. Thanks for asking. Here is my story. https://sharing.mayoclinic.org/2019/01/09/using-the-art-of-medicine-to-overcome-fear-of-surgery/
@coco8 I had cervical stenosis because the C5/C6 disc collapsed and grew bone spurs into my spinal cord causing compression. I had a whiplash 20 years earlier in a traffic accident, and with aging, the small cracks in the outer fibrous layer of the disc begin to open as the disc dries out, which allows it to herniate. Once that happens it causes inflammation which can cause bone spurs to grow. Spurs also grow in response to uneven pressure on the end plates of the vertebrae in an attempt to stabilize the spine. In my case that was compressing my spinal cord. I was loosing the coordination in my arms which was bad because I am an artist. I also had some unusual symptoms from that and it caused pain all over my body and that connection was missed by the surgeons who saw me locally, so that is what brought me to Mayo Clinic to a surgeon who recognized that the symptoms were related to my spine problem. I had a fusion without hardware 4 years ago. Since C5/C6 doesn't do much at all for turning the head, my movement is the same as it was before with a small exception. I used to be able to tuck my chin and touch my chest which I can't do now, but it is pretty close. Thanks for asking. Here is my story. https://sharing.mayoclinic.org/2019/01/09/using-the-art-of-medicine-to-overcome-fear-of-surgery/
Wow you have been through a lot with this. Are you able to work with out being in to much pain? What is your pain level if any? How often do you go to PT? I don’t know if my PT for my frozen shoulder was to much & caused the rib and spine to then go out. So odd for me to go from working out at the gym before the shoulder issue to moving the wrong way and being in excruciating pain from my back being unaligned. I will ask a new Dr I am seeing on Friday about the myofascial release therapy. Thank you for sharing your journey!
@coco8 For the most part, I'm not in pain unless I overdo something or am under a lot of stress which kicks things up and then my pain level is at most a 3 or 4 which comes from the Thoracic Outlet Syndrome, not the spine. If I do something with bad posture, or lay on the couch with my head turned, it can cause a muscle spasm in my neck which then causes headaches on the back of my head. Those are also caused by TOS too because of the tightness in the neck and shoulder muscles and all of it connected to the spine. I get some aching in my arms and hand from TOS because it compresses nerves and there are so many places in the chest that affect that. I don't have any nerve root compression in my spine. I go to PT once a week.
I don't work out at a gym. I do chores like a bit of yard work and feeding horses which means I have to open 8 foot metal gates that get stuck on the ground and I have to lift them up to open or close them. If I do that wrong and lean over instead of keeping my back straight, I will be in pain, but if I do it with safe posture, I'm OK. I wear an ankle brace and work boots with toe protection. Since recovering from an ankle fracture 14 months ago, I can't walk on uneven ground without tweaking and fatiguing my ankle, but with support, I can get through it OK. If I do too much walking etc, my ankle hurts for a few days. Last weekend, I had to chase a paper I dropped in a parking lot, so for the first time in over a year I had to run a little bit. That put me in pain with tendons and ligaments aching for a few days. That might give me pain at about a 4. I own a horse and do ride mostly at a walk, and I only do as much as I can do safely. My leg will fatigue from having to put weight in the stirrup, but that also helps strengthen it, and riding with good posture builds core strength in my spine. When that is strong, everything else and my posture is better which helps TOS.
Here is another way to think about it. Bones go where they are told to go, and they will go where the muscles push or pull them. The tension held in your muscles was there already and when you moved wrong, it threw your back out. That is kind of like twisting a rubber band and it flips and resets itself still with tension on it, but in a different position. Instead of trying to build muscle, think about trying to stretch your muscles and release the tension.
I hope your new doctor will embrace Myofascial Release. Some are not familiar with it. They study dead things where nothing moves and everything is stiff, so they don't see living fascia unless they see it during a live surgery, but that isn't a situation where they can study it because they are focused on the case. My PT has told me that knotted muscles are holding an electric charge which is how dry needling works. When you put a metal needle into that charge, it dissipates and releases the muscle. There is also a Dolphin Neurostimulator hand held device that can release tension with a current. I had good results when my PT did that along with MFR at the same time, so that there was a shearing force on the fascia in addition to the electric current. My PT also used the Dolphin to block the neurotransmitter pain signals at the nerve roots of my spine prior to my spine surgery. That blocked pain for about a week and helped maintain a better spinal curve.
Once you get things moving again, you need to stretch and keep things moving. Yoga is also a way to stretch fascia, so is cupping. If you are too aggressive in stretching fascia, it tears (causing scar tissue) or the body resists and braces which doesn't help anything. Scar tissue in fascia is part of the problem that makes it too tight. You have to be patient and go slow. There is a provider search at http://mfrtherapists.com/ There may be a lot of therapists who say they know this, but you should seek one who is certified in the John Barnes methods.
I wish you luck and good healing in your journey. Spinal alignment is important to keep even pressure on the vertebrae. Over many years, uneven pressure from muscle imbalances can affect the spine causing bone spurs, and cause other joints to have wear an tear. If you can keep the body in good ergonomic alignment, you can avoid some of the arthritic problems that happen because of misalignment.
Hi, my wife (57 years old) has had her ribs repeatedly pop out in the last couple of years following a history of chronic neck and upper back pain prior to that due to spinal stenosis. For the neck pain she has had relief from nerve ablation. For her ribs, she has had them manipulated back in place by her osteopathic pain doctor as well as undergone intercostal nerve blocks. I was wondering how Mayo Clinic would treat this problem and who the expert doctors on this issue at Mayo Clinic are? Thanks.
Hi, my wife (57 years old) has had her ribs repeatedly pop out in the last couple of years following a history of chronic neck and upper back pain prior to that due to spinal stenosis. For the neck pain she has had relief from nerve ablation. For her ribs, she has had them manipulated back in place by her osteopathic pain doctor as well as undergone intercostal nerve blocks. I was wondering how Mayo Clinic would treat this problem and who the expert doctors on this issue at Mayo Clinic are? Thanks.
@sbcusa Hello and welcome to Connect. I wanted to let you know that Connect is a patient forum and not associated with any scheduling or treatment at Mayo Clinic. Here patients share their stories and ask questions and we learn from each other. I am a spine surgery patient for cervical stenosis and I also have Thoracic Outlet syndrome that makes my neck and chest very tight. I have had that twist my ribs out of place which is painful and it has interfered with my breathing when I can't expand my chest properly. The tightness for me is caused by overly tight fascia and that is a network throughout the body, if it is pulled tight because of scar tissue it holds the body in an abnormal position and prevents proper alignment.
TOS is a diagnosis that is most often missed because it isn't covered well in a lot of medical schools (according to my neurologist). TOS has many places that can cause compression of nerves and blood vessels that affect the brachial plexus nerve bundle that travels between the collar bone and rib cage on its way to the arm. I was diagnosed with tests that demonstrated that my pulse was diminished with different positions of my arm and head. I already had TOS when I had anterior cervical spine surgery that put a scar from the surgery close to the problem area of the TOS.
My best treatment for TOS is myofascial release with a physical therapist trained in the John Barnes methods.
Provider search: http://mfrtherapists.com/
This is a hands on manual therapy that stretches fascia and gets it moving again. The fascia needs to have a gentle shearing force pushing it and you just wait for the release. If you push too aggressively, it tears the fascia and creates more scar tissue just adding to the problem. You don't want the body bracing against it because that doesn't work either. I started a discussion about MFR therapy to post a lot of information links which are on the first pages and patients have joined the discussion as well.
If you would like to seek help from Mayo Clinic, contact one of the appointment offices. The contact information for Minnesota, Arizona and Florida can be found here http://mayocl.in/1mtmR63.
Myofascial release takes patience and repeating sessions to make progress. I have managed my condition without any pain management, and because I regularly did MFR prior to my spine surgery, it made that better too. My surgeon was able to retract my neck more easily during surgery because the muscle was looser for having done MFR.
Does myofascial release sound like something you may want to explore?
Hi, my wife (57 years old) has had her ribs repeatedly pop out in the last couple of years following a history of chronic neck and upper back pain prior to that due to spinal stenosis. For the neck pain she has had relief from nerve ablation. For her ribs, she has had them manipulated back in place by her osteopathic pain doctor as well as undergone intercostal nerve blocks. I was wondering how Mayo Clinic would treat this problem and who the expert doctors on this issue at Mayo Clinic are? Thanks.
Hello @sbcusa. I'd like to extend a warm welcome to Mayo Clinic Connect, along with @jenniferhunter who has responded to you with a comment just recently.
You will notice that I have moved your post into an existing discussion on slipping rib syndrome. This will allow you to review previous comments by other members as well as connect with members already active like @coco8@stacey01@brayimee@jdmorgan@lynneat and @meyer who may have additional information to share with you.
With all of the procedures she has gone through so far, is she still having the same issue with her ribs popping out?
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@coco8 Wow, I'm sorry your son in law needed this surgery, but circulation is important. My circulation is affected by TOS and my hands used to turn blue or purple and get cold to the touch. Just turning my head cuts off circulation. That is better now, but I can see where that type of situation would be made worse by the extra muscle development of being a gymnast. How is you son in law now? How long has it been since his surgery? Did the surgery help, and did it affect his normal functioning? I presume that he had to give up gymnastics by loosing part of a collar bone and the function supporting strength of it.
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1 ReactionWow you have been through a lot with this. Are you able to work with out being in to much pain? What is your pain level if any? How often do you go to PT? I don’t know if my PT for my frozen shoulder was to much & caused the rib and spine to then go out. So odd for me to go from working out at the gym before the shoulder issue to moving the wrong way and being in excruciating pain from my back being unaligned. I will ask a new Dr I am seeing on Friday about the myofascial release therapy. Thank you for sharing your journey!
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1 ReactionHe is doing much better & it has been about 3 years ago. He does want to go to the Dr. as he is getting some symptoms that I would need to verify what they are. He is in a different state and needs to find a new Dr.
What kind of surgery did you have on your spine?
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1 Reaction@coco8 I had cervical stenosis because the C5/C6 disc collapsed and grew bone spurs into my spinal cord causing compression. I had a whiplash 20 years earlier in a traffic accident, and with aging, the small cracks in the outer fibrous layer of the disc begin to open as the disc dries out, which allows it to herniate. Once that happens it causes inflammation which can cause bone spurs to grow. Spurs also grow in response to uneven pressure on the end plates of the vertebrae in an attempt to stabilize the spine. In my case that was compressing my spinal cord. I was loosing the coordination in my arms which was bad because I am an artist. I also had some unusual symptoms from that and it caused pain all over my body and that connection was missed by the surgeons who saw me locally, so that is what brought me to Mayo Clinic to a surgeon who recognized that the symptoms were related to my spine problem. I had a fusion without hardware 4 years ago. Since C5/C6 doesn't do much at all for turning the head, my movement is the same as it was before with a small exception. I used to be able to tuck my chin and touch my chest which I can't do now, but it is pretty close. Thanks for asking. Here is my story.
https://sharing.mayoclinic.org/2019/01/09/using-the-art-of-medicine-to-overcome-fear-of-surgery/
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3 ReactionsThank you! What a great story!
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1 Reaction@coco8 For the most part, I'm not in pain unless I overdo something or am under a lot of stress which kicks things up and then my pain level is at most a 3 or 4 which comes from the Thoracic Outlet Syndrome, not the spine. If I do something with bad posture, or lay on the couch with my head turned, it can cause a muscle spasm in my neck which then causes headaches on the back of my head. Those are also caused by TOS too because of the tightness in the neck and shoulder muscles and all of it connected to the spine. I get some aching in my arms and hand from TOS because it compresses nerves and there are so many places in the chest that affect that. I don't have any nerve root compression in my spine. I go to PT once a week.
I don't work out at a gym. I do chores like a bit of yard work and feeding horses which means I have to open 8 foot metal gates that get stuck on the ground and I have to lift them up to open or close them. If I do that wrong and lean over instead of keeping my back straight, I will be in pain, but if I do it with safe posture, I'm OK. I wear an ankle brace and work boots with toe protection. Since recovering from an ankle fracture 14 months ago, I can't walk on uneven ground without tweaking and fatiguing my ankle, but with support, I can get through it OK. If I do too much walking etc, my ankle hurts for a few days. Last weekend, I had to chase a paper I dropped in a parking lot, so for the first time in over a year I had to run a little bit. That put me in pain with tendons and ligaments aching for a few days. That might give me pain at about a 4. I own a horse and do ride mostly at a walk, and I only do as much as I can do safely. My leg will fatigue from having to put weight in the stirrup, but that also helps strengthen it, and riding with good posture builds core strength in my spine. When that is strong, everything else and my posture is better which helps TOS.
Here is another way to think about it. Bones go where they are told to go, and they will go where the muscles push or pull them. The tension held in your muscles was there already and when you moved wrong, it threw your back out. That is kind of like twisting a rubber band and it flips and resets itself still with tension on it, but in a different position. Instead of trying to build muscle, think about trying to stretch your muscles and release the tension.
I hope your new doctor will embrace Myofascial Release. Some are not familiar with it. They study dead things where nothing moves and everything is stiff, so they don't see living fascia unless they see it during a live surgery, but that isn't a situation where they can study it because they are focused on the case. My PT has told me that knotted muscles are holding an electric charge which is how dry needling works. When you put a metal needle into that charge, it dissipates and releases the muscle. There is also a Dolphin Neurostimulator hand held device that can release tension with a current. I had good results when my PT did that along with MFR at the same time, so that there was a shearing force on the fascia in addition to the electric current. My PT also used the Dolphin to block the neurotransmitter pain signals at the nerve roots of my spine prior to my spine surgery. That blocked pain for about a week and helped maintain a better spinal curve.
Once you get things moving again, you need to stretch and keep things moving. Yoga is also a way to stretch fascia, so is cupping. If you are too aggressive in stretching fascia, it tears (causing scar tissue) or the body resists and braces which doesn't help anything. Scar tissue in fascia is part of the problem that makes it too tight. You have to be patient and go slow. There is a provider search at http://mfrtherapists.com/ There may be a lot of therapists who say they know this, but you should seek one who is certified in the John Barnes methods.
I wish you luck and good healing in your journey. Spinal alignment is important to keep even pressure on the vertebrae. Over many years, uneven pressure from muscle imbalances can affect the spine causing bone spurs, and cause other joints to have wear an tear. If you can keep the body in good ergonomic alignment, you can avoid some of the arthritic problems that happen because of misalignment.
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1 Reaction@coco8 Thank you! I enjoy sharing my story.
Hi, my wife (57 years old) has had her ribs repeatedly pop out in the last couple of years following a history of chronic neck and upper back pain prior to that due to spinal stenosis. For the neck pain she has had relief from nerve ablation. For her ribs, she has had them manipulated back in place by her osteopathic pain doctor as well as undergone intercostal nerve blocks. I was wondering how Mayo Clinic would treat this problem and who the expert doctors on this issue at Mayo Clinic are? Thanks.
@sbcusa Hello and welcome to Connect. I wanted to let you know that Connect is a patient forum and not associated with any scheduling or treatment at Mayo Clinic. Here patients share their stories and ask questions and we learn from each other. I am a spine surgery patient for cervical stenosis and I also have Thoracic Outlet syndrome that makes my neck and chest very tight. I have had that twist my ribs out of place which is painful and it has interfered with my breathing when I can't expand my chest properly. The tightness for me is caused by overly tight fascia and that is a network throughout the body, if it is pulled tight because of scar tissue it holds the body in an abnormal position and prevents proper alignment.
TOS is a diagnosis that is most often missed because it isn't covered well in a lot of medical schools (according to my neurologist). TOS has many places that can cause compression of nerves and blood vessels that affect the brachial plexus nerve bundle that travels between the collar bone and rib cage on its way to the arm. I was diagnosed with tests that demonstrated that my pulse was diminished with different positions of my arm and head. I already had TOS when I had anterior cervical spine surgery that put a scar from the surgery close to the problem area of the TOS.
My best treatment for TOS is myofascial release with a physical therapist trained in the John Barnes methods.
Provider search: http://mfrtherapists.com/
This is a hands on manual therapy that stretches fascia and gets it moving again. The fascia needs to have a gentle shearing force pushing it and you just wait for the release. If you push too aggressively, it tears the fascia and creates more scar tissue just adding to the problem. You don't want the body bracing against it because that doesn't work either. I started a discussion about MFR therapy to post a lot of information links which are on the first pages and patients have joined the discussion as well.
Here is our discussion on MFR therapy
https://connect.mayoclinic.org/discussion/myofascial-release-therapy-mfr-for-treating-compression-and-pain/
If she wanted to seek an appointment at Mayo, a doctor who treats TOS is your best bet. There is some overlap in specialties that treat TOS. I was seen by a thoracic surgeon at Mayo. Here is the page with physicians who treat TOS.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/thoracic-outlet-syndrome/doctors-departments/ddc-20353997
If you would like to seek help from Mayo Clinic, contact one of the appointment offices. The contact information for Minnesota, Arizona and Florida can be found here http://mayocl.in/1mtmR63.
Myofascial release takes patience and repeating sessions to make progress. I have managed my condition without any pain management, and because I regularly did MFR prior to my spine surgery, it made that better too. My surgeon was able to retract my neck more easily during surgery because the muscle was looser for having done MFR.
Does myofascial release sound like something you may want to explore?
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1 ReactionHello @sbcusa. I'd like to extend a warm welcome to Mayo Clinic Connect, along with @jenniferhunter who has responded to you with a comment just recently.
You will notice that I have moved your post into an existing discussion on slipping rib syndrome. This will allow you to review previous comments by other members as well as connect with members already active like @coco8 @stacey01 @brayimee @jdmorgan @lynneat and @meyer who may have additional information to share with you.
With all of the procedures she has gone through so far, is she still having the same issue with her ribs popping out?
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1 Reaction