Blood pressure measurement - automated vs manual method

Posted by z1kate @z1kate, Jul 11 5:08pm

I am not finding any information on my specific problem, but thought that someone here might understand.

I admit that I'm overweight. My upper arms are quite fleshy and flabby. I have also been a regular blood donor for my entire adult life. I've donated blood about 150 times.

The problem started about 10 years ago. I went to donate blood, as usual. But, for the first time, the donation center was using automated blood pressure machines, rather than the hand-pump and stethoscope method. During the measurement, the machine paused, released some pressure, then increased the pressure enormously - to the point I was almost in tears from the pain. For the first time in my life, I was about to be deferred for high blood pressure. But my blood pressure had always been on the low side, never even approaching a high number The nurse took my BP manually, and it was easily in the normal range. And the difference was not small. The manual method said my BP was something like 107/75, the automated machine said it was something like 185/105.

I continue to have the same problem with automated BP machines. If I go to the doctor's office or to a blood donation site where the machine is automated, the reading is extremely high (after crushing my arm). If my BP is taken manually, it is in a normal range. Again, not a small difference - readings of 180-200 for the upper number with an automatic machine, readings of 115-130 with a manual cuff.

Nobody believes me that this happens, unless I'm in a place where both methods are available. It always surprises practitioners that the automated machine is so inaccurate. Please remember that the practitioner can actually hear my heartbeat with the manual measurement, so it's clearly the automated machine that is wrong. It seems that the automated machines have a hard time detecting my pulse, which is why the machine increases the pressure to the point of extreme pain.

To answer the obvious questions - yes, they use a bigger-sized cuff. Yes, I sit with my feet flat on the floor. Yes, my arm is resting at heart level. No, I'm not talking while the measurement takes place. Yes, I do get frustrated when the person taking my BP doesn't believe me that the machine is wildly incorrect. No, this is not white-coat syndrome, or why would it not appear when I'm about to donate blood?

Fortunately, I can donate blood through the Red Cross, who still uses manual cuffs. If I go to another local blood donation organization, I'm turned away for high BP.

Has anyone else ever experienced this problem with automated BP machines?

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Profile picture for tatiana987 @tatiana987

Thanks for bringing up the topic of accuracy of blood pressure data. I too do not know which readings are correct. A 24 hour monitor said my blood pressure was perfect. I had no problem. I noticed, however, that when I had symptoms, the monitor turned itself off and no data was collected. The device clearly detected something in order to shut itself down.

My home BP machine data shows my blood pressure all over the place, sometimes crisis level too high as defined by the cardiologist, and sometimes far too low, Many doctors over the years agreed that my bp is « volatile » or « labile », that is highly variable and they ask me about my bp, whether it is high or low during symptoms. I am old but never fat, but my arm may possibly be too small for the cuffs they use. Maybe they don’t have smaller cuffs? Who or what should we trust about blood pressure data?

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@tatiana987
I have BCBS FEP insurance in addition to Medicare. Every couple of years they offer an automatic BP machine free.

What they require is your doctor measure your arm and fill out the form. Based on that measurement they will send you the correct size for you.

I do know that I have seen Mayo Jacksonville change the cuffs before giving me my BP test.

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Profile picture for scottbliz @scottbliz

I have the same problem in Dr office. My cardiologist takes mine manually as he holds my arm at heart level. BP is always 120/77. Any other Dr. office walks me down a hall and and I step on and off a scale then go to another room and automatically take BP with arm hanging down. And my BP is always 180/95. I tell them about the difference and get a hateful look.

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Thank you! It is reassuring that I'm not the only one with this problem!!!

No, we are not crazy or deceiving ourselves. This may be an unusual problem with the automatic machines, but it's very real. Not to mention that my doctor keeps wanting to put me on BP meds, which I DO NOT NEED.

Also, I've read somewhere that taking BP *after* measuring our weight also increases most peoples' BP readings, since we live in such a weight-conscious society.

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Profile picture for con123 @con123

Yes and I have small arms. It will sometimes do exactly what you describe and reinflate, squeeze too tightly and I know that reading will be high.

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I though the re-inflation was because my upper arms are large, but it happens to you, too! And you are right - the cuff really hurts when the machine re-inflates. So the pain only adds to the excessively high reading.

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Profile picture for jc76 @jc76

@tatiana987
I have BCBS FEP insurance in addition to Medicare. Every couple of years they offer an automatic BP machine free.

What they require is your doctor measure your arm and fill out the form. Based on that measurement they will send you the correct size for you.

I do know that I have seen Mayo Jacksonville change the cuffs before giving me my BP test.

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Yes. Having the right size cuff seems important to me. It seems irresponsible not to use the right size.

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Profile picture for Armando @bolso1

There are published reports of scientific comparisons between automated and manual blood pressure measurements that show:
* lower readings from automated (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5515188/, https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8031494/)
* no differences between them (https://www.academicmed.org/Uploads/Volume5Issue4/281.%20%5B1288.%20JAMP_Arpita%5D%201409-1411.pdf)
* higher readings from automated (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4843288/#sec9).

Manual measurements require equipment calibration and proper training of the operators. They are not fault-free.

I have been obtaining normal blood pressure readings weekly since 2021 using an automated instrument, which I share with my cardiologist.

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Interesting medical studies there. I wonder how many drug studies have wilding varying results like these, so that we can choose the results we prefer.

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Profile picture for gloaming @gloaming

You might try a smart watch if you are able to. My own Galaxy 4 and 6 versions of the Samsung Galaxy smart watch can record sleep stages, blood pressure, oxygen saturation, pulse, and even detect atrial fibrillation.
Or, if you prefer to use a cuff: https://www.theemtspot.org/best-blood-pressure-monitor-for-small-arms/
I measure my BP first thing in the morning, before turning over a single time and getting out of bed (which is where the Galaxy watch is always handy because I wear it to track sleep). Just like your morning pulse rate is a good indication of heart health and your corporeal health overall (a pulse rate five or more beats above a running average might indicate a virus or over-exertion the previous day, maybe you have arthritis acting up or some other intrusive pain, or even a poor night's sleep), your just-awakened blood pressure is a veridical measure of your overall health. During the day, though, hormones and diet and obligations, worries, physical exertion, and any stimulants such as teas or coffee might put you in the 'caution' or 'watch' range. Then, you go see your family doctor and he'll raise an eyebrow and say you should be checking your BP daily and report back in a week because it looks high. I hope I'm being clear: taking a BP and pulse almost anywhere else but as you awaken is likely to be 'confounded,'* and probably misleading.
*In research, a 'confound' is any factor influencing the measurements you're interested in taking, but which you fail to take into consideration. https://www.scribbr.com/methodology/confounding-variables/

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Interesting. Thanks. Maybe I should try a Samsung Galaxy smart watch. Generally, I react to energy like radio waves in devices and I have been told to mention only skin irritation and heat from devices, not RF, but obviously the heat and skin irritation come from somewhere. At times the RF causes changes to heart rate imo. Possible?

People with huge faith in cell phones don’t like to talk about physical reaction like heating, skin irritation, disturbed sleep, increased heart rate caused by their device on skin.

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Profile picture for tatiana987 @tatiana987

Interesting. Thanks. Maybe I should try a Samsung Galaxy smart watch. Generally, I react to energy like radio waves in devices and I have been told to mention only skin irritation and heat from devices, not RF, but obviously the heat and skin irritation come from somewhere. At times the RF causes changes to heart rate imo. Possible?

People with huge faith in cell phones don’t like to talk about physical reaction like heating, skin irritation, disturbed sleep, increased heart rate caused by their device on skin.

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In complete disclosure, my Galaxy watch has a glass back to it, but I wear my watch 24/7. I have learned, the hard way, that I must wash the back of my watch (it's waterproof) at least twice each week, and I use an anti-bacterial soap when I do this. If if don't, and don't rinse well, then I begin to get contact dermatitis. So, please be aware of that. Also, all smart watches us a powerful 'LASER-like' diode to put light through your skin so that the sensor can read what is happening under the skin. Weirdly, the lastest Galaxy watch will also read the skin, itself, and do a photo-assay of the free radicals in your skin (this is to see if you're getting enough anti-oxidants in your diet to maintain health....!!!). But I feel it incumbent upon me to let you know this if you have sensitive skin.
What I have done, and it doesn't seem to affect the function of the watch's sensor, is to apply a light 'skiff' of 'barriere cream' on my skin or on the back of the watch, but not normally...only when I begin to get a skin redness under the watch. My dermatitis fixes itself inside of 24 hours doing this.
RF should not affect heart rhythm. The frequency is too low to impart any useful voltage to nearby tissues. Also, RF catheter ablation is still widely used (on me twice in the past three years) to ablate tissue causing atrial fibrillation. If it were true that RF can cause arrhythmia, it wouldn't be useful. It DOES damage tissue, but only when the RF wand is held against tissue and energy applied....which is what ablation is.
Remember, Bluetooth and other forms of emissions are around us all the time, and this includes radio wave broadcasts. Their frequency and energy content are far, far, too low to affect human tissue.

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Thanks so much for answering my questions with what looks like very competent scientific background.

On “contact dermatitis »: do we know how to differentiate mild burn scars from contact dermatitis? Could mild burning cause contact dermatitis? I asked Philips about my skin damage from their MCOT device and they had me take the device off for a few days. No product was advised on the skin, but washing well was advised. The words their guy used were « skin irritation ». Since a cell phone held up to the side of my face produces uncomfortable heat that feels similar to the heat from the MCOT, I cannot yet figure out what seems more logical as an explanation. Also, what about the old patient with old skin and impaired sweat production (cooling mechanism impaired)? Would that still not be a burn on the skin?

This is getting too long. Going to look at the Samsung Galaxy device at a store to see what I think. And I will continue looking at what you said. Again, thanks.

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I have the same problem. At every doctor’s office I go to with an automated Bp machine, my blood pressure is extremely high. When someone takes it manually, it is normal. Also, when I take it with the portable machine at home, it’s also normal. I don’t know what the problem is, but it’s nice to know others have the same problem with the automated machines. (By the way, I’m normal weight.)

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Profile picture for gloaming @gloaming

In complete disclosure, my Galaxy watch has a glass back to it, but I wear my watch 24/7. I have learned, the hard way, that I must wash the back of my watch (it's waterproof) at least twice each week, and I use an anti-bacterial soap when I do this. If if don't, and don't rinse well, then I begin to get contact dermatitis. So, please be aware of that. Also, all smart watches us a powerful 'LASER-like' diode to put light through your skin so that the sensor can read what is happening under the skin. Weirdly, the lastest Galaxy watch will also read the skin, itself, and do a photo-assay of the free radicals in your skin (this is to see if you're getting enough anti-oxidants in your diet to maintain health....!!!). But I feel it incumbent upon me to let you know this if you have sensitive skin.
What I have done, and it doesn't seem to affect the function of the watch's sensor, is to apply a light 'skiff' of 'barriere cream' on my skin or on the back of the watch, but not normally...only when I begin to get a skin redness under the watch. My dermatitis fixes itself inside of 24 hours doing this.
RF should not affect heart rhythm. The frequency is too low to impart any useful voltage to nearby tissues. Also, RF catheter ablation is still widely used (on me twice in the past three years) to ablate tissue causing atrial fibrillation. If it were true that RF can cause arrhythmia, it wouldn't be useful. It DOES damage tissue, but only when the RF wand is held against tissue and energy applied....which is what ablation is.
Remember, Bluetooth and other forms of emissions are around us all the time, and this includes radio wave broadcasts. Their frequency and energy content are far, far, too low to affect human tissue.

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https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/24683-radio-frequency-rf-skin-tightening
Here is an example of low frequency RF affecting skin. It must be true that some skin is affected more or differently than than some other skin. I don’t know whether this is a logical argument that RF can burn skin at rather low frequency, but maybe? I know that doctors I have encountered in the USA dismiss the idea.

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