Is a second ablation advisable if the AFib is controlled by flecainide

Posted by mrgaddy @mrgaddy, Feb 11 10:28pm

I have a history of AFib. A few months after an ablation the AFib returned after I did some heavy exercise (swimming race). My doctor put me on flecainide which controlled the AFib. After experiencing a lot of fatigue, I asked the Dr. if I could stop flecainide. Within days I went back into AFib and going back on flecainide didn't completely control it. After some months I scheduled a second ablation but some weeks after scheduling it the AFib was again under control. Does it seem to make sense to get the ablation anyway or should I be content with being under control with flecainide? I still have time to cancel the procedure. Anybody have similar experiences?

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@gloaming

PFA has been approved for a pulmonary vein isolation (PVI) since early last year, and it has been used for LAA isolation as of last summer. The outcomes in terms of ridding the patient of AF are, still early in PFA's history, no better than it is for cryo and for RF ablations, that being 75%. However, the risks to the patient are considerably less, notably damaging the esophagus, and the phrenic and Vagus nerves. I believe the risk for pulmonary vein hypertension is also lower.

Below is my (now) stock answer when dealing with considerations about AF:
It's strictly your call. Obviously, I don't know a thing about you, and can't do more than to point out the possible outcomes of not controlling it better. If you're okay with that, then here is my counsel, which you must have seen in other replies to people by now:

a. AF is a progressive disorder. The more you have, the worse it gets. The worse it gets, the more problems will happen as it evolves;

b. A percentage of your time, your oxygenation is poor(er) than when your heart is in NSR. As you age, all sorts of things deteriorate. Now you're adding a deficit, even if mild, of oxygen to the mix;

c. Many people feel that, if it isn't so bad, or not the least bit intrusive, what's to worry about? I feel fine, and I have the two meds, sssoooooo........ That's good, but it isn't stopping the progression of your disordered heart toward more intractable forms of the arrhythmia, and it might go on to result in mitral valve fibrosis and prolapse, and it could end in 'heart failure';

d. Did your various blood tests happen to show any insufficiency of electrolytes, and how about troponin? If the electrolytes were lowish, and if troponin is higher than normal, you have options with the electrolytes (supplementation daily), and the troponin is a marker of myocyte death, probably due to the stresses of the arrhythmia on heart muscle;

e. An ablation, in the right hands, is now considered to be the 'gold standard' of care for AF. It has the best outcomes and the least morbidity between other options, including just controlling it with medication. Your burden suggests that, at the very least, you should be on an anti-arrhythmic drug (to be determined by a competent physician based on your genotype and phenotype), and if it were up to me, you'd be in line with an electrophysiologist now. The idea is to control the onset of AF, to prevent it, and to stay out of it for as much as is possible without making your life truly miserable. For me, being in AF was indeed truly miserable. It was bloody awful. So, soon after my diagnosis, and after reading about things like amiodarone, I knew an ablation was my goal. It took two rounds of it to work, which is the case for about 25% of all first-time ablatees, but I am three days away from my second anniversary completely free of AF. If you'd like to be where I am, you have two options....get on an anti-arrhythmic or get an ablation.

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I don't seem to be in Afib now and I'm already on an anticoagulant (Eliquis) and an anti-arrhythmic (flecainide) . I'm seeing an electrophysiologist who is leaving it up to me whether I go through another ablation at this time.

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@harveywj

My reasoning would say go for the ablation because flecainide causes fatigue and it is not necessarily controlling Afib. That you are now seemingly under control is a "tweener". So it is sort of maybe yes or maybe not. You initially showed a failure of ablation albeit you were maximally stressing your heart during a race. It sounded rather soon to put that kind of stressors on your heart so close to an ablation ( you said "A few months after an ablation the AFib returned after I did some heavy exercise (swimming race). I am assuming you are good athlete and know how to train. What was your training period like? It seems that during your training period you would have also had the opportunity to maximally stress your heart but it didn't go into Afib during you training period?? One could argue it both ways. What you have left out is what was your experience with Afib before you had an ablation? As for PFA it is not the be all to end all: at least right now. Results really will not been known for a couple of more years. So far its biggest + is that there is less trauma to the heart. But the long term results are not here now. My EP wants more results before he jumps in and it sounds like Hopkins is in the same mind set.

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When I said a few months I think it was about 6 months. When I was training, I didn't stress my heart to the maximum. It was while racing that I stressed it to the maximum. Now I increase my training effort at a more comfortable pace and don't attempt to keep with others who don't have heart problems.
Before the first ablation the Afib was constant. Even after going off the flecainide it was only 30% of the time. Now it's less than 2% of the time, according to my Apple watch: which is, I think, the minimum time the Apple watch will indicate.

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@mrgaddy

The Afib did not return while on flecainide. It returned when I tried to stop it. I'm on flecainide now and am in sinus rhythm according to the last ECG the doctor did and according to my Apple watch.

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I understand; so if you prefer to take medication for the rest of your life, and it doesn’t hinder on your lifestyle, you probably do not want the ablation done. Especially when there are risks associated with the procedure. Maybe a Kardia 6L would be advisable to buy to monitor your EKG whenever you want, especially since the Apple Watch does not detect Afib properly

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@mrgaddy

I don't seem to be in Afib now and I'm already on an anticoagulant (Eliquis) and an anti-arrhythmic (flecainide) . I'm seeing an electrophysiologist who is leaving it up to me whether I go through another ablation at this time.

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I don't see a problem with this. The main thing is to control AF.....period. You want to be in AF as little as possible, and if your current regimen has it under pretty solid control (even if it turns out to be just for the next 2-5 years), there is no real reason to pay for, and to endure the risks of, an ablation. Later, if you realize you are losing ground to the arrhythmia, you can always get in line for an ablation, and it will be just as urgent as it is at present...meaning not very.

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I am a 67 yo female and have had afib since my 20’s, but it was infrequent and would convert itself after a few hours. After some chemo for cancer in my early 50’s it started to happen more and more frequently so I had an ablation. 3 mos after I had no issues at all then one day bam! I was in flutter and had to be converted, then 3 more ablations and five medications later I am on Flecainide and metoprolol, which are controlling it for the last four years. I now have SVTs and if I wasn’t on med I would live in the ER for conversions. I am saying that Flecainide is working for me now and I hope it continues to, bc I do not want to go through another ablation, maybe a different procedure or something but I’m really afraid now to mess with my heart any more than has already done, electrically! Plumbing wise, my heart is healthy. Any one heard of anything new out there?

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Hello - my goal is avoid AF - which Dofetilide has done - for one year - but I also need PVI Redo - so "Plan A" is get PFA - after that technology matures further - and use Dofetilide as "Plan B" - because that drug therapy has zero lead-time for me [compared to PFA] - and because 2023 AHA clinical guidelines advise this "management approach" given my goal [avoid AF.]

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I am on Sotalol for AFib and I still get palpitations - reason why I’m scheduled for an ablation. I haven’t heard about Flecainide - is it the same type of beta blocker or more effective than Sotalol? - I would like to discuss with my cardiologist.

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@teacher2001

I am on Sotalol for AFib and I still get palpitations - reason why I’m scheduled for an ablation. I haven’t heard about Flecainide - is it the same type of beta blocker or more effective than Sotalol? - I would like to discuss with my cardiologist.

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https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements/flecainide-oral-route/description/drg-20063854
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flecainide
https://www.medicinehow.com/how-does-flecainide-work/
Flecainide works well for some, but so poorly for others that it bears close monitoring. It's a sodium channel blocker, not a calcium channel blocker or a 'beta- blocker (for beta-adrenergic response).

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@jimcrandall

Dr Calkin did mine at JHH 12/14/23, I’ve been off Flecainide Acetate for over a year and have been in sinus rhythm since 11/12/23. I know he’s been in touch with Boston Scientific as he was part of the clinical trial, so JHH may be on their radar for PFFS soon.

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Thanks for the update on jhh🤞

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