So hard to study focal therapy

Posted by bjroc @bjroc, Sep 16, 2023

Right now it is super hard to find a doctor willing to do focal therapy, or information about it, or almost anything really. There seems widespread condemning rather than objectivity. There is also rampant over-classification of what is serious versus something that could have a focal therapy. Such as a tiny 4+3 or 4+4 cleared by PSMA scans, is often eliminated when the total volume of 4 might be less than most 3+4 that have been around awhile. See my discussion on that here: https://connect.mayoclinic.org/discussion/why-is-volume-of-the-cancer-not-used/.

This to me is just more over classification, something like pathology biopsy are sometimes over classified so that pathologist cover their arse or never under-estimate since it is potential lawsuit territory (why Epstein at JHU was popular for second opinions till he left).

See photo from recent ANCAN talk on "is focal therapy right for you". Look how many focal therapy there are. One rarely sees anyone mentioning any of them, if they do on some lists there is lots of condemning, one also can't find even doctors that do them because it is so almost "hidden". Even Mayo has docs that do a few focal therapy on that list, but you wouldn't know it as some are interventional radiologists and are not mentioned most prostate places/websites or discussions. I think the whole field of focal therapy needs to turn around, including discussions. All the treatments have issues and problems, but the worst problem is a vacuum of info on focal therapies since there are many now. But finding info or doctors is just about impossible. Not actually asking any question here as I may have my own treatment plan soon (Tulsa or Proton but we will see as anything possible still), but this has been a hard process to find info, doctors, help on anything but radiation therapy or RP.

Interested in more discussions like this? Go to the Prostate Cancer Support Group.

@bjroc

Tulsa has the same calcification limits so no use pursuing if you have calcification, most places are in FL or TX that do it anyway. Some of the others on the image/picture at top might be worth pursuing, but so hard to find places, just not sure how one even gets a perspective on most of those. Toxic direct injection for example, it is done in other cancers and it works but who does it? I have no idea.

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..and then we have the insurance debacle....

I guess we really have to be our own advocates but this is very hard to navigate. My urologist, one of the better ones in my area, well, let's just say I'm a bit shocked at what he's said / did / prescribed vs what I've learned....

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@spino

Focal therapy is another term for ablation. Focal draws attention to the fact that it is targeted. Ablation draws attention to the fact that it kills the cells in situ (on site) rather than removing them (prostatectomy) or suppressing them (ADT).
With respect to prostate cancer, this generally means identifying cancer that is localized (prostate cancer generally forms nodules) and well-contained (there is one or a few spots of concern, not many) in the prostate.
Metastasis, in contrast, means the cancer has spread beyond the prostate itself. The type of cancer cells can be identified as coming from the prostate, but they are growing other places--eventually in the bones.
Not just @bjroc, but many researchers have longed to add focal therapy to their arsenal of cancer treating strategies. So far, it has not become a front line treatment. Why?
One, as various contributors have mentioned it's limited. While many techniques have been tried to kill prostate cells in a specific location, none have been entirely successful. (Radiation, radioactive seeds, other implanted "seeds", lasers, freezing, ultrasound, specialized radiation like proton beams, and even more.) Obviously part of the problem is knowing what to destroy and part of the problem is precisely targeting tiny spots in the very middle of your abdominal core. Breasts, in contrast, are much more accessible.
Two, the equipment is incredibly expensive. This means that each new technique or variant requires huge investments of capital, and once this has been done, huge marketing efforts (by the few who have the equipment) are required to reap a return that might pay for these investments as well as the specialized practitioners. Posting information online and sponsoring non-profit foundations to get the word out can be part of those strategies. (As an analogy, right now an investment company sponsors adds discussing how to choose between their three much larger competitors! They want you to trust them to help you make your decisions. This could conceivably happen in medicine, even in cancer medicine.)
Three, ablation (focal therapy) creates scarring. This scarring--the dead cells left behind--confounds the future monitoring and treatment of the cancer, which is likely to recur, since even if the cancer nodules are eliminated, the same prostate that formed them is still there.
Four, as with all prostate cancer treatments, the often slow development of prostate cancer frustrates evaluation of treatment alternatives. When active surveillance is a reasonable option, you know that outcomes must be in doubt. Very high numbers of men with prostate cancer live 5, 10, and 15 years. Most get it after age 50--the average age is mid-60s. This makes evaluating treatment options a lot tougher than if people die in 18 months. My sister's brain cancer "breakthrough" turned 18 months into 36 months (average from diagnosis to death.) That makes research easier than turning 10 years into 20 years, especially since people also die from other causes.
So why do ablation/focal therapy? Because while PC has no symptoms for a long time, PC treatments affect poop, piss, and passion. The literature refers to this as health-related quality of life (hrQOL etc). It's a step more aggressive than active surveillance, which can extend for years, but less aggressive than RP, ADT, and more extensive ablation (less focal if you will!)

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Well done Spine. Well said, indeed. Bravo! I'm especially fond of the 3 p's.

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@dpcarriere

Well done Spine. Well said, indeed. Bravo! I'm especially fond of the 3 p's.

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Whoops, a mistype. Spino.

Where are you? I'm being treated at Mayo Scottsdale.

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