My lessons learned about idopathic non-diabetic peripheral neuropathy

Posted by snagydude @snagydude, Jul 26 12:30pm

I wish to thank the mentors. They do such a great job given the limitations of their interactions. I am a Ph.D. trained individual in public health who has struggled with PN for about 10 years. It is progressive and is now nearing my knees. Pain, balance loss, etc are my symptoms (like many of you this really sucks!) I'm not a snob, grew up with no indoor bathroom until I was 12. Worked hard my entire life, since my parents immigrated from Europe due to WW2. My mom was pregnant with me in an English immigration camp so I have multiple problems due to her poor nutrition. Here are my lessons learned.

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Profile picture for John, Volunteer Mentor @johnbishop

This one caught my attention @snagydude...
7. There seem to be some metabolic issues that no one is talking about. For example I've been seen by 5 neurologists and diagnosed over and over. It seems like a financial windfall for many physicians since I get nothing from seeing them. I'm suspicious since I've taught hundreds of doctors.
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Have been in the pre-diabetes category most of my adult life and have discussed diabetes vs pre-diabetes with all of my different primary care doctors, none of whom mentioned anything about the metabolic syndrome. Had I been clued in earlier I'd like to think I might have started working to change my lifestyle and eating habits before my neuropathy started progressing more noticeably. Probably wishful thinking on my part 🙃 I think I first learned about it while watching a Dr. Jay Wortman video on my weight loss journey. If anyone is interested in learning more about the metabolic syndrome, I thought I would share the research that I have found helpful here:

METABOLIC SYNDROME
-- Diagnosis and Management of the Metabolic Syndrome
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/circulationaha.105.169404
-- The metabolic syndrome – What is it and how should it be managed?
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2047487319886404
-- A comprehensive definition for metabolic syndrome
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2675814/
-- The Metabolic Syndrome and Neuropathy: Therapeutic Challenges and Opportunities: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3881591/
-- Metabolic syndrome as a risk factor for neurological disorders
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21997383/
The videos that got me started:
-- Dr. Jay Wortman - 'Undoing Atkins: A Cautionary Tale' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIegMp5cWBY
-- Dr Jay Wortman Diabetes Remission is Surprisingly Simple! - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx6xw3wOAMc

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I have hovered just below the prediabtics markers most of my adult life
Taught the diabetic diet. Ate well exercised routinely. but always fought weight gain Docs said just cut the ice cream. I didn’t eat ice cream. High blood pressure
Been complaining about foot pain for years- it was there- the beginnings — ignored. Told better shoes Lol I wasn’t explaining the right words
3 years ago. BAM A1c jumped. Pain levels increased.
What to do? Ate well.
Offered gabapentine— ha the drug of nightmares
Finally landed on low carb low fat high protein
A1c. Normal
But neuropathy on the move. Now in my calves
Magnesium helps. As does 1200 lipoic acid
I think I would rather have pain than numb. Numb says dead to me. That’s frightening
Metabolic syndrome. Diagnosis too late.
I hope you can walk on, my friend .

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Profile picture for John, Volunteer Mentor @johnbishop

I don't really blame the doctors but do understand they are not all the same. They are people like us and come in a variety of personalities, some with people skills, some not so much. This is why I was so happy to meet Dr. Victor Montori at a Mayo Clinic Social Media webinar in Rochester, Minnesota a few years ago and had the opportunity to learn about an organization he was involved with to change our healthcare system. That made me a big fan of The Patient Revolution organization - https://www.patientrevolution.org/. I also had the opportunity to attend the Care that Fits 2024 event as a patient and really saw all of the work being done world wide to improve healthcare. Here's a list YouTube videos from the 2024 event - https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSWR1ylG_6JYeQl_ajndQ2jLCRcYkkqgI&si=f2_vtXYce6PU87Gn.

I'm starting to see it actually come to fruition in southern Minnesota with the HELPCare Clinic started by a Mayo Clinic retiree and his local doctor friend - https://helpcare.health/.

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John - thank you for tempering my comments. I'll be quiet now. Going thru a bad patch with this stuff. S.

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Profile picture for snagydude @snagydude

John - thank you for tempering my comments. I'll be quiet now. Going thru a bad patch with this stuff. S.

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A “bad patch” is exactly what this forum is for! Keep talking - believe me, this group is listening and nodding.
I just politely fired my neurologist after 2 1/2 years. I am a nurse, and even though he was fresh out of residency and I was one of his first patients, I thought “I’ll give this a chance”. His lack of curiosity about strange symptoms and worsening neurological symptoms allowed me to be grossly over medicated for 18 months. That’s a long story, but UAB figured out what was happening. They have agreed to be my primary neurologist, even though it’s 2 hours away. Thank goodness for patient portals and telemedicine.
When working as a nurse, I was kind, concerned, reassuring - I broke my own rule by staying with a doctor who didn’t meet my personal standards, mainly out of convenience. Plus I was too sick from the over medication to make changes.
So yes, follow your instincts, because harm can be done. Your points have validity.

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Profile picture for snagydude @snagydude

John - thank you for tempering my comments. I'll be quiet now. Going thru a bad patch with this stuff. S.

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I agree with @julbpat, a "bad patch" is something we all can relate to and we can help each other get through the day. It helps when we can discuss the shortcomings of medical care and help other members navigate difficult medical conditions like neuropathy. I didn't mean to temper your comments but just wanted to offer some hope for a lot of us that have felt the same thing on our journey. I guess my own excitement for the Patient Revolution organization got the best of me. It offers me some hope for future generations of patients but a part me wants it in my own personal healthcare right now.

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Has anyone tried Arialeif or is it a scam?

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Profile picture for julbpat @julbpat

A “bad patch” is exactly what this forum is for! Keep talking - believe me, this group is listening and nodding.
I just politely fired my neurologist after 2 1/2 years. I am a nurse, and even though he was fresh out of residency and I was one of his first patients, I thought “I’ll give this a chance”. His lack of curiosity about strange symptoms and worsening neurological symptoms allowed me to be grossly over medicated for 18 months. That’s a long story, but UAB figured out what was happening. They have agreed to be my primary neurologist, even though it’s 2 hours away. Thank goodness for patient portals and telemedicine.
When working as a nurse, I was kind, concerned, reassuring - I broke my own rule by staying with a doctor who didn’t meet my personal standards, mainly out of convenience. Plus I was too sick from the over medication to make changes.
So yes, follow your instincts, because harm can be done. Your points have validity.

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I am waiting for a call for a neurologist at UAB for an appointment. My neurologist was fresh out of school. Knew nothing. No suggestions about just basics
And yes I have stayed with Dr M even though he told me for years I just needed better shoes.
Harm was done.

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Profile picture for snagydude @snagydude

My points remain as stated. Physicians are people but like people many are not the best. Remember, the medical student who scores and performs the poorest but still graduates is still called doctor. One needs to be careful about selecting a doctor and this remains a problem since there are too few neurologists. Too many doctors do not read current literature, nor do they practice artful medicine where they look beyond the standard treatment. Accreditation requirements are minimal standards that a doctor must meet to meet continuing education for licensure. When the problems go beyond the standard gabapentin and pregab treatment an artful physician would look at the patient and discuss potential other approaches. BUT most will only perform the very least necessary. It is a catch 22 for physicians given lawsuits, but off label treatments are used all of the time. Thus cilastizol should remains an off label option for some.
Secondly many physicians do profit from all the testing. They are a part of a medical group. My general doc is part of a group and they have an independent lab, along with some cardiac testing. The profits from all of these tests are part of the group's income and adds to the physicians bottom line. The cost of medical treatment is a problem. In our system only those covered by insurance get the better treatment while those less fortunate are mostly overlooked. Where is our humanity for them? We pay way too much for medical care and physicians as a group look the other way since the current setup pays them very well. Again I generalize, there are always exceptions. Those I can admire!

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I do not agree with many of your statements, which are factually incorrect, misleading or simply speculation. However, because this forum is for the benefit of PN patients, it is not appropriate for us to engage in personal disputes.
As you may have guessed, I am a physician and patient with PN. As such, I have had the "privilege" of having the best of care, and the ability to know the difference. I have also, in desperation, tried almost everything, after the "gabapentin and pregab" treatment route was not particularly helpful. As I have written before on this forum, the thing that helped the most was mindfulness training, which allowed me to develop a different attitude towards my disease. This training was suggested and arranged for by my neurologist, who is a professor at a well known medical school and hospital. The physicians I know are not against using alternative approaches or "artful medicine" if there is evidence that they may be efficacious and the benefit outweighs the risks. In the unhappy world in which PN exists, they are happy to accept anything that may work, as long as it does no harm.
As I said before, there is no current literature to support the use of cilastizol for PN, and, as with all medications (and many supplements) there are potential adverse side effects. It would not be covered by insurance. If there were a bad result, it would be a slam dunk malpractice suit.
I sense that you have several negative opinions about physicians I don't think promoting them here is helpful, as it it may encourage people to try unproven and/or expensive scams. For the newly diagnosed PN patient, the best approach is to see a board certified neurologist (who has, in fact, had years of training and many hours of continuing medical education and are required to be recertified periodically). There is a standard series of tests, after which a specific diagnosis is made (if possible) and then appropriate treatments are initiated. Since the initial treatments are rarely completely successful (nobody's fault), other treatments are tried, including holistic and other non traditional ones (as in my case). There is almost always something that will make the patient feel better.

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Profile picture for debbieod @debbieod

I am waiting for a call for a neurologist at UAB for an appointment. My neurologist was fresh out of school. Knew nothing. No suggestions about just basics
And yes I have stayed with Dr M even though he told me for years I just needed better shoes.
Harm was done.

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My neurologist had literally just completed his residency at UAB, and knew my neurologist there (who is the most wonderful physician I have ever had). He was excited about working in tandem with his Attending Physician from UAB. No such teamwork happened. I let it go on too long. Yes, harm was done to me too.

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Profile picture for jeffrapp @jeffrapp

I do not agree with many of your statements, which are factually incorrect, misleading or simply speculation. However, because this forum is for the benefit of PN patients, it is not appropriate for us to engage in personal disputes.
As you may have guessed, I am a physician and patient with PN. As such, I have had the "privilege" of having the best of care, and the ability to know the difference. I have also, in desperation, tried almost everything, after the "gabapentin and pregab" treatment route was not particularly helpful. As I have written before on this forum, the thing that helped the most was mindfulness training, which allowed me to develop a different attitude towards my disease. This training was suggested and arranged for by my neurologist, who is a professor at a well known medical school and hospital. The physicians I know are not against using alternative approaches or "artful medicine" if there is evidence that they may be efficacious and the benefit outweighs the risks. In the unhappy world in which PN exists, they are happy to accept anything that may work, as long as it does no harm.
As I said before, there is no current literature to support the use of cilastizol for PN, and, as with all medications (and many supplements) there are potential adverse side effects. It would not be covered by insurance. If there were a bad result, it would be a slam dunk malpractice suit.
I sense that you have several negative opinions about physicians I don't think promoting them here is helpful, as it it may encourage people to try unproven and/or expensive scams. For the newly diagnosed PN patient, the best approach is to see a board certified neurologist (who has, in fact, had years of training and many hours of continuing medical education and are required to be recertified periodically). There is a standard series of tests, after which a specific diagnosis is made (if possible) and then appropriate treatments are initiated. Since the initial treatments are rarely completely successful (nobody's fault), other treatments are tried, including holistic and other non traditional ones (as in my case). There is almost always something that will make the patient feel better.

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I have over 40 years of experience working with doctors educating them and have held 3 appointments in medical schools as adjunct faculty. My comments often are generalizations from those experiences.
1. There seems to be a moral gap/humanistic lacking component in a subset of those who I have helped to train. Our health care system is the most expensive in the world and yet clearly far from good to all. Physicians are like the fox guarding the chicken coup. Listening to physicians will not change this questionable system. I am part of a lucky group that can access quality care, but I deeply care for those who can't access care.
2. The American system seems to exclude what is learned in the rest of the world. Cilastizol for example is used by neurologists in Canada and Europe. It seems to help individuals with arteriole problems that are associated with PN. Essential oils are used in the Middle East with some success. But essential oils are relatively cheap and Big Pharma has not adopted their use in any meaningful way. Why has the government not sponsored research in this area? How can we as a country come up with cost effective treatments? What is done in other parts of the world?
3. I search daily in the medical publications primarily PubMed looking for good news on PN. It is generally fruitless with work on diabetes and chemotherapy induced PN being the focus. If you are not in that unfortunate group you are more than likely to be treated as though you are.
4. I continue to look for research on the usefulness of CBD and THC but there is very little. But we know that these substances are effective for many. Lessons learned are my personal experiences and it is good for others to share their insights and experiences.
5. As a physician you have had good experiences and it would be beneficial for individuals such as yourself to speak out and encourage others to benefit from your positive results in a way that others may also benefit from. And I agree with you that mindfulness (a change of attitude) is probably the only thing that one can control.
6. Physicians primary focus is on A)avoiding lawsuits and B) getting paid for service. Only after A & B can you schedule an appointment. Things are often rushed; patients can often feel uneasy about their interactions within this environment. We need to see improvements. Things cost too much and there is poor access with often many months before one can access a neurologist.
7. We can continue to seek alternatives that can work. I strongly suggest that there be some biochemistry basis for what is tried.
8. Change will only occur if enough people speak out and demand better solutions.

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Profile picture for julbpat @julbpat

My neurologist had literally just completed his residency at UAB, and knew my neurologist there (who is the most wonderful physician I have ever had). He was excited about working in tandem with his Attending Physician from UAB. No such teamwork happened. I let it go on too long. Yes, harm was done to me too.

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Any chance you would share the name of your neurologist. I live in Florence Al The one at UAB. Thank you .

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