Is biopsy necessary & effective for detecting prostate cancer?

Posted by thig350 @thig350, Jan 15 7:21pm

So, 57 years old and received a PSA of 11.7. Since then, I did some research and got my legs under me and had my Urologist order an MRI with contrast but said he would most likely order a biopsy regardless of the MRI results to better ensure whether or not PC is present given my elevated PSA level.

MRI results came back "suspicious for PC along with prior PSA level." I am now scheduled for MRI targeted TRUS biopsy in a few days that incorporates the MRI images.

So, self-guided research is great for the most part but now I've read comments that the biopsy is barbaric, that the MRI alone is good enough to assess presence of cancer, that the biopsy is the gold standard for determining the presence of cancer...

My personal common-sense meter tells me that it makes sense to obtain samples of the prostate and get it under the microscope. I'd be interested in hearing thoughts on this from those of you who have actually been through the MRI and the what sounds like the "wonderful" biopsy experience - is the biopsy a good tool to assess PC presence and next steps or is it just medical check the boxes so to speak?

Thank you in advance.

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Profile picture for jercalif @jercalif

@brianjarvis I think that what it boils down to is that if you are in a seller's market then you have to limit your urologist "negotiations" that might alienate your urologist to only the ones that are the most important to you, and since I want a relatively hard to find fusion biopsy I think I'm just going to have to "go along to get along" with regard to the pain, and then once I have my fusion biopsy done I can then see how hard to find the next step will be, and then decide whether it is worth risking alienating my urologist over that next step.
That next step (probably) that I would prefer is a [RALP + suprapubic catheter], but I expect that it might be impossible to find a urologist that will give me a referral for that until it is deemed to be "medically necessary", even if I am willing to pay cash for it. Actually, from my perspective, a truly well-contained prostate cancer might be a better biopsy result for me than a "no cancer" biopsy result, because cancer might entitle me to a RALP, whereas no cancer won't.
If it were breast cancer, I could do an Angelina Jolie and have a prophylactic removal, but that isn't normally done for men's prostates, and I understand the reasoning...my prostate isn't isolated and exposed like a woman's breasts are, and so it's a far more risky operation than a double mastectomy (I assume).

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@jercalif There are a number of focal therapies you could look into that simply ablate the cancerous tissue by ultrasound, freezing, heat, or water vapor/pressure.

Not quite like a breast cancer lumpectomy, but about as close as you’ll get.

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Profile picture for brianjarvis @brianjarvis

@jercalif There are a number of focal therapies you could look into that simply ablate the cancerous tissue by ultrasound, freezing, heat, or water vapor/pressure.

Not quite like a breast cancer lumpectomy, but about as close as you’ll get.

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@brianjarvis I'm keeping my mind open about everything, but until I get to experience catheterization, I won't be able to evaluate all of those treatments fairly.
I'm waiting for a return call from my primary care physician to have me come in and have her NP allow me to experience catheterization. My primary care is already on board, but it takes days to get a call back about anything nowadays.
I believe that a knitting needle is about the same diameter as the average catheter (4-5mm), so I guess I could...🤔
No... I'm totally just kidding... If I messed up my urethra with a knitting needle no urologist would ever take me, or take me seriously, as a patient again.
My ONLY priority right now is to get my fusion biopsy completed...most likely without adequate anesthesia...but just to get it completed no matter how much it hurts, because there is no path to treatment and future pain relief that doesn't go through a biopsy first...and my best chance for finding cancer is a fusion biopsy.

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Profile picture for jercalif @jercalif

@derbydog71
You wrote: "My urologist said that the biopsy is the better route to go instead of an MRI".
Hopefully you mean that he was recommending a biopsy as opposed to an MRI WITHOUT a biopsy? Yes, an MRI alone is not good enough, at least not currently. But an MRI plus biopsy... preferably a targeted "fusion" biopsy...is better.

My original urologist wanted to go right to a systematic biopsy without doing an MRI or even mentioning the existence of fusion biopsies, transpirennial fusion biopsies, etc.,...and why would any ethical and competent urologist recommend to a patient to do an untargeted biopsy when targeted biopsies are available? I still haven't found the answer to that question, but whatever the answer is I would consider it malpractice to not at least mention alternative superior procedures to a patient.
I'm not suggesting substituting an MRI for a biopsy, I'm just saying why do a "blind" systematic biopsy when an MRI at least offers a chance at finding some targets to shoot at, in addition to the systematic samples.

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@jercalif
The reason I went with a biopsy is because they told me that there's a 30% chance that the MRI could miss spots/cancer, etc....

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Profile picture for jercalif @jercalif

@brianjarvis I think that what it boils down to is that if you are in a seller's market then you have to limit your urologist "negotiations" that might alienate your urologist to only the ones that are the most important to you, and since I want a relatively hard to find fusion biopsy I think I'm just going to have to "go along to get along" with regard to the pain, and then once I have my fusion biopsy done I can then see how hard to find the next step will be, and then decide whether it is worth risking alienating my urologist over that next step.
That next step (probably) that I would prefer is a [RALP + suprapubic catheter], but I expect that it might be impossible to find a urologist that will give me a referral for that until it is deemed to be "medically necessary", even if I am willing to pay cash for it. Actually, from my perspective, a truly well-contained prostate cancer might be a better biopsy result for me than a "no cancer" biopsy result, because cancer might entitle me to a RALP, whereas no cancer won't.
If it were breast cancer, I could do an Angelina Jolie and have a prophylactic removal, but that isn't normally done for men's prostates, and I understand the reasoning...my prostate isn't isolated and exposed like a woman's breasts are, and so it's a far more risky operation than a double mastectomy (I assume).

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@jercalif
The thing with the biopsy is that the Transperineal biopsy not only can cause less of a chance of infection it can get to more areas of the prostate, Area the transrectal can’t get to. This could make a real difference when your cancer is in those other areas, And the doctor could never know for sure unless they test.

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I initially hesitated to tell of my experience yesterday with my mri guided fusion biopsy because I thought it might scare someone from having one who NEEDED one. But I guess we must all be honest on this forum. I received the antibiotic shot on right hip while laying on left side. My doc is the head of urology at my clinic in Houston. The actual biopsy went as planned ,as some have described. It was not exposed except for my butt.Uncomfortable of course,but manageable. Pain around 3 on a 10 scale. The shot in the hip was worse. The nurse said it was a penicillin derivative which most of us old guys are familiar with from back in the day. Rather painful. However the ride home was one to remember. I bled though my underwear and jeans ,through a jacket I hurriedly put under my butt to protect my seat.( didn’t help) I felt a powerful urge to move my bowels and when I couldn’t hold it anymore…….i let loose. I let loose four more times while driving myself home. Took about an hour. Got home and investigated. No stool just liquid. I thought they must have squirted a volume of saline in me. But I guess I am a bleeder. What a ride home ! Of course I called the doctor. He seemed more concerned about infection. Amazingly(this happened yesterday) I took no pain meds yesterday and today. Feel fine.

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In 2016, I had my first MRI and biopsy, both negative. As my PSA went up to 7.7 in 2022,I had a second MRI with contrast-negative. My urologist recommended a 2nd biopsy anyway, and it showed 2 cores of cancer, one at 3+4. There’s more to the story, but in answer to your question, based on my situation, I recommend getting the biopsy. Best wishes.

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Profile picture for jercalif @jercalif

@brianjarvis To me, the barbaric aspect is the fact that it is usually done without general anesthesia (nor spinal anesthesia)...but that's just my opinion.

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@jercalif

I did a 12 core random Biopsy Negative, under General anesthesia propofol just like colonoscopy completely painless O side effects. I highly recommend a targeted biopsy vs random biopsy. Since it was negative now they want a random saturation Biopsy 24-30 cores! I asked what if this comes back negative when there is clearly a target. I refused going to Mayo for Targeted fusion Biopsy done in real time while in the MRI machine……

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Profile picture for jc76 @jc76

@brianjarvis
I echo your post.

I have PTSD anxiety/panic disorder and I wanted my biopsies done transperineally with anesthesia. My urologist (was at Mayo) wanted to do transrectal as I was a heart failure patient and pushed me to have it done transrectal. My opinion was he wanted to do transrectal as was not as complex as transperineally done in surgical section versus a special office setting.

I did not accept his insistence and contacted my heart failure doctor about his stance. My HF doctor and I knew I had no restrictions on having anesthesia as had had it several times and just weeks prior for a colonoscopy. I had my HF doctor contact the urologist and advised him cardiology had no restrictions on me having anesthesia.

My urologist informed me he had been contacted by HF doctor and would schedule me for MRI/Fusion procedure with anesthesia.

So like you said, stand up, speak, get what is best for you when you have options. I also did not want the additional increase in infection (was told 1-2%) if it could be avoided and did not want it done transrectal.

I don't think the transperineally is barbaric but a very specific and precise surgery. It confirmed I had PC when my MRI just showed suspicious areas.

Some on MCC had no problem having it done transrectal and that is their decision to make.

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@jc76

Nice! Work! Wish I would have stood up and did exactly what you’re doing ….. Godspeed 😊👍🏻🇺🇸

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PSA and MRI can tell if there is a suspicion of cancer. The telescopes of 1600 Europe saw something circling the planet Saturn. This is the same as PSA and MRI with PCa. It took improved telescopes to discover Saturn had rings. This is analogous to the biopsy. There is no way to discern Gleason 3+3, from 3+4, or 4+3 from PSA and MRI alone.

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Profile picture for yarddogman @yarddogman

I initially hesitated to tell of my experience yesterday with my mri guided fusion biopsy because I thought it might scare someone from having one who NEEDED one. But I guess we must all be honest on this forum. I received the antibiotic shot on right hip while laying on left side. My doc is the head of urology at my clinic in Houston. The actual biopsy went as planned ,as some have described. It was not exposed except for my butt.Uncomfortable of course,but manageable. Pain around 3 on a 10 scale. The shot in the hip was worse. The nurse said it was a penicillin derivative which most of us old guys are familiar with from back in the day. Rather painful. However the ride home was one to remember. I bled though my underwear and jeans ,through a jacket I hurriedly put under my butt to protect my seat.( didn’t help) I felt a powerful urge to move my bowels and when I couldn’t hold it anymore…….i let loose. I let loose four more times while driving myself home. Took about an hour. Got home and investigated. No stool just liquid. I thought they must have squirted a volume of saline in me. But I guess I am a bleeder. What a ride home ! Of course I called the doctor. He seemed more concerned about infection. Amazingly(this happened yesterday) I took no pain meds yesterday and today. Feel fine.

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@yarddogman
First so sorry you had this experience.

I see you had MRI Guided Fusion. Did you have it done transrectal or transperineally?

Normally (can only advise what Mayo Jacksonville does) transperineally is done with anesthesia and thus you would not be awake. Transrectal biopsies are done through your rectum where transperineally is done through the perennial.

From your post I assume you had it done transrectal is that correct? I did not have transrectal as I posted. Could they have used as enema to clean you out? Would be something to asked. Again did not have transrectal so if you had it done that way can't give you my experience with it but your post does not seem to be the norm I have seen on MCC

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