How bad is a spine T-score of -4 ?

Posted by Sophie93 @sophie93, Sep 1, 2023

Is it too bad?
Is there a chance for "turning back" from such score?
Has someone actually improved it?

I feel devastated to see this score, Given my age, I don't want to live all my life in fear that I will fracture. Just asking for your opinion/experiences.

Thanks,
Sophie

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@sophie93

I'm sorry that things have been rough for you 🙁 I know very well how frustrating it can be: You do everything "just right" and the T-score is just dropping further.
Believe me, it is NOT the protein: I have been meticulous with my protein intake, all my life, making sure I get just enough animal AND plant based protein at every meal. If anyhing, there are studies that show that increased protein intake can be harmful for the bones.
Your lifestyle sounds perfectly healthy.

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Just wanted to reply to your comment that protein intake is harmful for your bones. It is actually very necessary for bone as well as building muscle which is vitally important to stability particularly for those with osteoporosis. Current analysis is pointing to current RDA recommendations being too low (as is typical with RDA recommendations which are often minimal requirements to avoid disease not necessarily optimal dose recommendations to promote best health outcomes).

For all of us with osteoporosis, I think it's important to do a whole body approach incorporating best practices in exercise, nutrition and medication when necessary. It's a good idea to look at your nutrient intake to see if you are really getting your necessary daily requirements. I track my nutrition through the website cronometer.com and would highly recommend it. It is eye-opening. I have an extremely healthy diet but I am often surprised at how some nutrients fall short of of my daily requirement. By entering my food intake, I can see where I need to supplement so that I don't overdo my supplementation (or under-do!). Some might find this tedious to do but I find it easy and fun (cause I'm a bit of a nutrition nerd :). The only thing with this website that is not optimal is that their protein and fiber requirements are low, probably because they are based on current RDAs so I shoot for higher intakes. The other issue with nutrient intake is absorption so it's optimal to work on good digestion if that is an issue.

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@teb

Just wanted to reply to your comment that protein intake is harmful for your bones. It is actually very necessary for bone as well as building muscle which is vitally important to stability particularly for those with osteoporosis. Current analysis is pointing to current RDA recommendations being too low (as is typical with RDA recommendations which are often minimal requirements to avoid disease not necessarily optimal dose recommendations to promote best health outcomes).

For all of us with osteoporosis, I think it's important to do a whole body approach incorporating best practices in exercise, nutrition and medication when necessary. It's a good idea to look at your nutrient intake to see if you are really getting your necessary daily requirements. I track my nutrition through the website cronometer.com and would highly recommend it. It is eye-opening. I have an extremely healthy diet but I am often surprised at how some nutrients fall short of of my daily requirement. By entering my food intake, I can see where I need to supplement so that I don't overdo my supplementation (or under-do!). Some might find this tedious to do but I find it easy and fun (cause I'm a bit of a nutrition nerd :). The only thing with this website that is not optimal is that their protein and fiber requirements are low, probably because they are based on current RDAs so I shoot for higher intakes. The other issue with nutrient intake is absorption so it's optimal to work on good digestion if that is an issue.

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Hi @teb

Of course it is necessary, that goes without saying, as they have collagen in them. I was talking about too much protein. Now, how much is really too much and for which person (eg. very active or sedentary, younger or older etc.) that is another topic and I have to admit, I have to do a lot of reading about that 🙂
However, given my size (I'm petite and underweight), I can be pretty sure at least for myself, that I get enough protein on a daily basis. I have a big appetite and I'm a 'big eater' so to speak, so I like to eat and meat/fish, dairy and other protein-rich foods are on my daily menu.

Cronomenter is a good idea though. I haven't tracked my intake exactly, so this is the best time to start doing that 🙂

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@sophie93

Actually, I do have a question (not related just to my situation, even though it is the case for me as well)
Why does it seem like almost all younger adults with osteoporosis have worse scores on the spine in comparisson to the hips?
I wasn't able to find any information online :/

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I have found information that states with osteoporosis the spine is impacted first (people in their 60’s , the hips become impacted later in life, more in the 80’s. I think it probably has to do with the fact that the mesenchymal area of the vertebrae of the spine is where the differentiation of cells is determined ie…how many and what will become osteoclasts (bone eaters) versus osteoblasts (bone builders). A balance needs to be established for building and keeping bone at good levels. Sometimes it’s also my understanding that within the mesenchyme the cells may become fat cells , not bone related cells at all.

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@sophie93

Actually, I do have a question (not related just to my situation, even though it is the case for me as well)
Why does it seem like almost all younger adults with osteoporosis have worse scores on the spine in comparisson to the hips?
I wasn't able to find any information online :/

Jump to this post

You have noticed a statistical fact. The spine has more trabecular bone and is more vulnerable to early loss. Vertebral segments are shorter subject to more force that is less distributed, and more subject to movement.
Hips are more likely to lose bone over the long period of uneven impact because of slight differences in leg length. In addition, with age comes increased possibility of other affecting diseases, like cancer. In my case, radiation through the hips has altered the bone marrow affecting the bone density. Cancers of the reproductive and digestive systems often cause bone loss through radiation treatment.
Sophie, you are interested in every detail. Your curoisity is wonderful. You even researched this.

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@ans

I have found information that states with osteoporosis the spine is impacted first (people in their 60’s , the hips become impacted later in life, more in the 80’s. I think it probably has to do with the fact that the mesenchymal area of the vertebrae of the spine is where the differentiation of cells is determined ie…how many and what will become osteoclasts (bone eaters) versus osteoblasts (bone builders). A balance needs to be established for building and keeping bone at good levels. Sometimes it’s also my understanding that within the mesenchyme the cells may become fat cells , not bone related cells at all.

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Thank you for your clear and helpful explanation. Yes, that makes sense.
My hips are osteoporotic as well, but the situation is the worst in my spine.

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@gently

You have noticed a statistical fact. The spine has more trabecular bone and is more vulnerable to early loss. Vertebral segments are shorter subject to more force that is less distributed, and more subject to movement.
Hips are more likely to lose bone over the long period of uneven impact because of slight differences in leg length. In addition, with age comes increased possibility of other affecting diseases, like cancer. In my case, radiation through the hips has altered the bone marrow affecting the bone density. Cancers of the reproductive and digestive systems often cause bone loss through radiation treatment.
Sophie, you are interested in every detail. Your curoisity is wonderful. You even researched this.

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Thank you for your great explanation.
And I'm sorry to hear about your experience with radiation treatment. I was aware that it can cause significant bone loss. Is there anything that can be done during the radiation that could slow down or stop the loss?

Oh, and thank you for your nice words... I'm kinda curious by nature, particularly about medicine and health issues. Maybe that can be helpful in this situation 🙂

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@teb

Just wanted to reply to your comment that protein intake is harmful for your bones. It is actually very necessary for bone as well as building muscle which is vitally important to stability particularly for those with osteoporosis. Current analysis is pointing to current RDA recommendations being too low (as is typical with RDA recommendations which are often minimal requirements to avoid disease not necessarily optimal dose recommendations to promote best health outcomes).

For all of us with osteoporosis, I think it's important to do a whole body approach incorporating best practices in exercise, nutrition and medication when necessary. It's a good idea to look at your nutrient intake to see if you are really getting your necessary daily requirements. I track my nutrition through the website cronometer.com and would highly recommend it. It is eye-opening. I have an extremely healthy diet but I am often surprised at how some nutrients fall short of of my daily requirement. By entering my food intake, I can see where I need to supplement so that I don't overdo my supplementation (or under-do!). Some might find this tedious to do but I find it easy and fun (cause I'm a bit of a nutrition nerd :). The only thing with this website that is not optimal is that their protein and fiber requirements are low, probably because they are based on current RDAs so I shoot for higher intakes. The other issue with nutrient intake is absorption so it's optimal to work on good digestion if that is an issue.

Jump to this post

Ted,
I am totally with you on our nutritional intake. I think more people should take this into account.

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Sophie, I appreciate your thoughts, though
my cancer experience was : I didn't want chemotherapy, so I had to travel far and wide to find an oncologist who would treat me without. That part was really fun, Then, poor me, I had to go to this beach town, La Jolla where I did all sorts of things I'd never done before: uber, airbnb six tatoos-- they use black dots to mark radiation ports. The treatment was daily except weekends five minutes of a thirty minute visit. I ran on the beach everyday and went dancing every weekend. Two months of self indulgence from which I may never recover.
The cancer was painful, but after the first radiation dose the tumor collapsed. Then when you have cancer you have a team whose main job is to laugh at all your jokes. I lost bone in the sacral ala and in the femur and I think it may be progressive.

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