1. < Spine Health

Excruciating chronic left side neck pain plus lumbar issues

Posted by AlfredB @ab6540183, Dec 23, 2022

Hi Everyone,

I just joined and this is my first post.
I am a 66 year old male that lives in Melbourne Aus.
Thankfully I found this discussion forum in order to get answers in regards to my deteriorating condition.

For the last 20 years I have been an active sportsman doing long distance bicycle riding and body building, but in the last 9 years I have been hit 3 times (2013,2015,2019) by negligent drivers while riding. These accidents have caused me severe whiplash and a multitude of fractures.

Each time I recovered and went back doing my riding passion.

4 months ago I noticed a pretty strong left sided pain around C6 therefore I went to see physiotherapists and osteopaths. But 4 weeks later at the end of August, this pain got even worse when one night while lying down on my loungeroom carpet, I got up and felt multiple crackles in the spine. It didn't hurt at the time therefore I went to sleep and woke up half hour later in extreme pain going from the left side of my neck, left side of my thoracic spine. I felt as if I was twisted. I was unable to sleep or sit. Standing provided some relief but I couldn't sleep.

Things slightly improved over the next 3 weeks.
I had some MRIs done at the end of August 2022 which showed:

C2/C3:
[No protuberant osteophyte, disc bulging, spinal canal stenosis or
neural foramina stenosis.]
C3/C4:
Minimal broad base central and bilateral lateral disc bulging with
associated minimal right intervertebral foramina stenosis
C4/C5:
Broad-based central and right lateral disc bulging with associated
moderate right intervertebral foraminal stenosis
C5/C6:
Disc bulging resulting in moderate bilateral intervertebral foraminal
stenosis
C6/C7:
Right lateral/foraminal disc bulging resulting in moderate right
intervertebral foramina stenosis

C7/T1:
[No protuberant osteophyte, disc bulging, spinal canal stenosis or
neural foramina stenosis.]
Conclusion:
Multilevel disc bulging and multilevel intervertebral foraminal stenosis. To see the complete reports open the attached PDF.

I contacted TAC which in Australia stands for Transport Accident Commission. They are responsible for paying medical expenses for anyone who has been a victim of a transport accident. Every driver in Victoria pays a premium yearly when they renew their car registration.

I arranged an appointment here to see first and orthopaedic surgeon and then a neurosurgeon. The first specialist told me that I had C6 nerve root impingement and the second specialist reported facet joint syndrome in the neck.

The injury is defined as a mechanical injury.
I noticed a discrepancy between the 2 opinions which left me frustrated. None of the specialists can pin point the exact source of the pain. They both recommended pain management and I am currently on Endep 10, Catapress 100 and Targin 10/5 daily.

Also I was told that no operation for this condition was required and ultimately a fusion, if non invasive, minimally invasive therapies didn't work.

This maybe ok as a temporary solution, but it can't be a life long remedy, because these medicines have side effects and I can't even drive the car to the supermarket when I am drowsy.

In the mean time I had C6 nerve root cortisone injection at the hospital on 1 of DEC 2022, but it didn't work at all after 3 weeks.
I actually have more pain than ever before something like 30% more. I queried the hospital, but they told me that it was done correctly.

Just a few days ago I have had fresh, new MRIs of the cervical/thoracic spine and a bone scan of the whole spine.

Yesterday 23.12.2022, according to the pain management specialist and the neuro surgeon, they couldn't find a lot of difference compared to the previous MRIs taken in August. They were perplexed as to why I feel so much pain. They can't pinpoint the source of the pain.

This is not very re-assuring and I have to keep taking drugs for the next 6 weeks. If I don't take the medication I have extreme, 10 out 10 burning pain that starts around left of neck at C6 going through C7, T1, T2, T3. The pain is also spreading aggressively in the left of my trapezius muscle. I have referred pain in the left shoulder, left scapula, left bicep/triceps and in the little, medium, index finger and left thumb. Referred pain is also felt in the right but not as bad. I also get pain going into my left pec muscle but it is not related to the heart. My cardiologist told that I am fine there even though I can get high blood pressure when I am anxious and stressed out.

To make things worse I have also been getting left/right headaches, left ear ache, left sided head scalp numbness and dizziness from time to time in the last 2 months. Just 2 weeks ago I developed a ringing tone in my right ear which is hypersensitive to sounds. I am a total mess.

The mental depression has been really bad and I have been isolated at home because I am unable to enjoy life like I used to.

Recently when I sit and lie down I feel numbness in my legs and feet. When I stand the problems seems to disappear.

My main frustration is the lack of answers and solutions to fix these problems and two specialists can't agree on a course of action.

I have been doing a lot of research and learned that referred pain can be caused by pressure on neck functional nerves and by facet joints sensory nerves but I don't which one is the culprit. Not even the specialists know.

I am worried that if the compression is not removed in time from those nerves (assuming that it is nerve related) I may get a neuropathy and get paralysis.

My bladder/kidney/liver functions are currently fine.

I don't know if anyone in the Mayo community has come across this and knows something about it.

While searching I found this site which looks promising:
spineconnection org
They can fix a lot of spine related problems.

I haven't received the December MRIs/Bone Scan yet.

Thanks and regards

Alfred

Shared files

summary of mri xray (summary-of-mri-xray.pdf)

Interested in more discussions like this? Go to the Spine Health Support Group.

AlfredB | @ab6540183 | Jan 17, 2023
In reply to @jm1 "Sometimes massage aggravates it more. See if you can find a PT with neuromodulation or an..." + (show)
@jm1

Sometimes massage aggravates it more. See if you can find a PT with neuromodulation or an X5 soft tissue oscillation therapy. These helped me alot with nerve pain.

Jump to this post

Hi jm1,

thanks again.

I can't find X5 soft tissue oscillation therapy in Melbourne Australia.

This country is really behind.

REPLY
jm1 | @jm1 | Jan 18, 2023

Alfred
He has great reviews om rate md and google. Dont know if you saw them.
https://www.ratemds.com/doctor-ratings/dr-yagnesh-vellore-melbourne-vic-au/
Here is the USA some neurosurgeons specialize doing just brain, or just cervical etc. It's hard to stay abreast of their field and skilled in all areas.

REPLY
AlfredB | @ab6540183 | Jan 19, 2023

Just an update from me

While everyone is busy at my transport accident insurer and at my doctors, I am feeling nearly constant extreme pain in the neck, the lumbar area, referred pain in the legs, hips, knees, feet, shoulders, arms, elbows and hands.
The pain management is not helping much. I am limping when I walk. Life is becoming very hard.

REPLY
lebanon100 | @lebanon100 | Jan 19, 2023

Wishing you all the best. Hang in there. Life will be better.

REPLY
neferkem1 | @neferkem1 | Jan 19, 2023

I was in an elevator accident in 2000.... it took 15 years for my doctors to catch up, AND BELIEVE what I was telling them!!! You are NOT insane! You seem to be very in tune with your body, due to your athletic regimen!
DO NOT WAIT 15 years, like I had to. Finally had C-5 - C-6 surgery... My bone was jellified... They basically scooped it out with a spoon.

REPLY
AlfredB | @ab6540183 | Jan 21, 2023

Update 22 January 2023.

The last 2 days have been reasonable, in other words not too painful.

Not sure if it is because of the pain killers and the anti-inflammatories.

I still can't believe how many meds my pain management doctor gave me to be taken daily 😱

1 x Endep 10mg
1 x Pregabalin 25mg
1 x Diclofenac 50mg
1 x Clonidine 50mcg
1 x Targin 10mg

I believe that I can't take this stuff forever, it may cause other issues.
On Friday I had a phone appointment with the doctor. He told me to keep taking the medicines because he believes that we have to wait 3 months to allow the discs to repair themselves. The MRIs show that I have bulging discs, thinning of the discs and large complex osteophytes which are severely compressing.

I don't know what he is up to. How can the medicines improve a structural problem?
To me it is is like a bridge with damaged columns trying to stay up.

Anyway I am not medical expert to make such statements.

Today the pain has increased again despite the meds. I feel pretty strong pain shooting through traps, shoulders, arms , hands and fingers especially left thumb, index finger, middle finger and little finger.

The come and go throughout the day.

I am frustrated by the fact that most of my activities are restricted now. Before I was so active physically and mentally. I have been an IT expert for more than 30 years and when people ring me to get IT support I have to tell them that I have to ring them back due to the pain. I can't drive onsite for the same reason. A lot of support is done either through the phone or via remote access. My brain is fully functional, I can resolve issues, but the pain interferes in a big way.

When will I see the light? I keep praying our Lord 🙏

Alfred

REPLY
1 reply
Mentor
Jennifer, Volunteer Mentor | @jenniferhunter | Jan 22, 2023
In reply to @ab6540183 "Update 22 January 2023. The last 2 days have been reasonable, in other words not too..." + (show)
@ab6540183

Update 22 January 2023.

The last 2 days have been reasonable, in other words not too painful.

Not sure if it is because of the pain killers and the anti-inflammatories.

I still can't believe how many meds my pain management doctor gave me to be taken daily 😱

1 x Endep 10mg
1 x Pregabalin 25mg
1 x Diclofenac 50mg
1 x Clonidine 50mcg
1 x Targin 10mg

I believe that I can't take this stuff forever, it may cause other issues.
On Friday I had a phone appointment with the doctor. He told me to keep taking the medicines because he believes that we have to wait 3 months to allow the discs to repair themselves. The MRIs show that I have bulging discs, thinning of the discs and large complex osteophytes which are severely compressing.

I don't know what he is up to. How can the medicines improve a structural problem?
To me it is is like a bridge with damaged columns trying to stay up.

Anyway I am not medical expert to make such statements.

Today the pain has increased again despite the meds. I feel pretty strong pain shooting through traps, shoulders, arms , hands and fingers especially left thumb, index finger, middle finger and little finger.

The come and go throughout the day.

I am frustrated by the fact that most of my activities are restricted now. Before I was so active physically and mentally. I have been an IT expert for more than 30 years and when people ring me to get IT support I have to tell them that I have to ring them back due to the pain. I can't drive onsite for the same reason. A lot of support is done either through the phone or via remote access. My brain is fully functional, I can resolve issues, but the pain interferes in a big way.

When will I see the light? I keep praying our Lord 🙏

Alfred

Jump to this post

@ab6540183
Alfred, I think you are right to question your doctor's motives. When your disc is loosing height it is on the way to collapsing. You can simply ask your doctor how can a disc that does not have a blood supply repair itself?

I asked if my spinal disc could be saved, and the answer was "no" from my neurosurgeon. The disc was collapsed 50% and was growing bone spurs next to the extruded material (the nucleus) because the outer layer (the annulus) had ruptured.

I've been looking for some literature on the topic of spinal disc regeneration in case there is anything that backs up his statement about a disc healing itself. I found these, and it doesn't really answer the question. I'm sure there are lots of factors, and age (and degree of age-related degeneration) and degree of injury surely would be variables.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8607668/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20739107/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8155933/
As for the restriction of your activities, you'll need to come to terms with that. It's a loss. Right now, you don't know what recovery is possible, and this is going to take a lot of patience. Surgery will be a compromise because you can get back some function, but you can loose some ability to move normally. Perhaps, you don't have that now. Somehow you need to find some strength inside yourself to move your life in another direction, whatever that would mean for you. Learn all you can about your condition so you can ask educated questions that will make the surgeon think to answer it.

Pain interfering with your normal daily activities and inability to focus are things that doctors and therapists make note of. They give you a numeric disability score based on questions, and also gage any recovery later on by asking the same questions.

You are right. Pain medicines do not solve a structural problem. The anti-inflammatories may buy some space by reducing inflammation. Your surgeon should give you a better explanation about waiting 3 months. Does that even make sense since your injuries happened over a few years time, and have recently escalated? If the discs were going to repair themselves, wouldn't that have already happened previously? Perhaps this is kind of like a requirement in failing physical therapy before a surgical solution is offered. You are in a tough spot of needing his help even though you question his motives. You'll need to be respectful when communicating with him. I know this is difficult. Hang in there.

REPLY
1 reply
AlfredB | @ab6540183 | Jan 22, 2023
In reply to @jenniferhunter "@ab6540183 Alfred, I think you are right to question your doctor's motives. When your disc is..." + (show)
@jenniferhunter

@ab6540183
Alfred, I think you are right to question your doctor's motives. When your disc is loosing height it is on the way to collapsing. You can simply ask your doctor how can a disc that does not have a blood supply repair itself?

I asked if my spinal disc could be saved, and the answer was "no" from my neurosurgeon. The disc was collapsed 50% and was growing bone spurs next to the extruded material (the nucleus) because the outer layer (the annulus) had ruptured.

I've been looking for some literature on the topic of spinal disc regeneration in case there is anything that backs up his statement about a disc healing itself. I found these, and it doesn't really answer the question. I'm sure there are lots of factors, and age (and degree of age-related degeneration) and degree of injury surely would be variables.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8607668/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20739107/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8155933/
As for the restriction of your activities, you'll need to come to terms with that. It's a loss. Right now, you don't know what recovery is possible, and this is going to take a lot of patience. Surgery will be a compromise because you can get back some function, but you can loose some ability to move normally. Perhaps, you don't have that now. Somehow you need to find some strength inside yourself to move your life in another direction, whatever that would mean for you. Learn all you can about your condition so you can ask educated questions that will make the surgeon think to answer it.

Pain interfering with your normal daily activities and inability to focus are things that doctors and therapists make note of. They give you a numeric disability score based on questions, and also gage any recovery later on by asking the same questions.

You are right. Pain medicines do not solve a structural problem. The anti-inflammatories may buy some space by reducing inflammation. Your surgeon should give you a better explanation about waiting 3 months. Does that even make sense since your injuries happened over a few years time, and have recently escalated? If the discs were going to repair themselves, wouldn't that have already happened previously? Perhaps this is kind of like a requirement in failing physical therapy before a surgical solution is offered. You are in a tough spot of needing his help even though you question his motives. You'll need to be respectful when communicating with him. I know this is difficult. Hang in there.

Jump to this post

Once again,
thank you for your advice Jennifer.

You have more empathy and advice than my doctors.

When I first started with these neurosurgery medical group, I only saw the neurosurgeon once on the 24th of November 2022. Then he passed me on to the pain management specialist who arranged for pain management and some injections. Now he want me to do the following:

1) Cervicothoracic medial branch blocks, specific levels as guided by pain mapping under CT guidance.
2)Left C5/6 transforaminal injection to treat bone scan report of increased disc degenerative activity at
C5/6 with less-marked disc degenerative activity at C4/5, as well as severe left C5/6 foraminal stenosis.

The transport accident insurer (TAC) is giving me the run around. I rang them up today to find out how the approval for paying for these procedures and was told there is a 5 week wait!

I can't believe it. How hard can it be to do this approval process?

I asked my pain management doctor to explain how serious is my neck condition and how my discs are inside my neck, he hasn't been able to explain MRIs to me in detail except for some generic details.

All this is making me frustrated in the meantime and increasing my pain.

I can't believe how this screwed this Australian system is! Feels like living in a third world country.

Best regards

Alfred

REPLY
1 reply
Mentor
Jennifer, Volunteer Mentor | @jenniferhunter | Jan 23, 2023
In reply to @ab6540183 "Once again, thank you for your advice Jennifer. You have more empathy and advice than my..." + (show)
@ab6540183

Once again,
thank you for your advice Jennifer.

You have more empathy and advice than my doctors.

When I first started with these neurosurgery medical group, I only saw the neurosurgeon once on the 24th of November 2022. Then he passed me on to the pain management specialist who arranged for pain management and some injections. Now he want me to do the following:

1) Cervicothoracic medial branch blocks, specific levels as guided by pain mapping under CT guidance.
2)Left C5/6 transforaminal injection to treat bone scan report of increased disc degenerative activity at
C5/6 with less-marked disc degenerative activity at C4/5, as well as severe left C5/6 foraminal stenosis.

The transport accident insurer (TAC) is giving me the run around. I rang them up today to find out how the approval for paying for these procedures and was told there is a 5 week wait!

I can't believe it. How hard can it be to do this approval process?

I asked my pain management doctor to explain how serious is my neck condition and how my discs are inside my neck, he hasn't been able to explain MRIs to me in detail except for some generic details.

All this is making me frustrated in the meantime and increasing my pain.

I can't believe how this screwed this Australian system is! Feels like living in a third world country.

Best regards

Alfred

Jump to this post

@ab6540183
Alfred, Thank you for your kind words. I did consider medicine as a career at one time, but I took a different path in research instead. I think you need to advocate for a surgical solution to your spine issues. How about calling your local news television station and asking for help? Are there reporters there who take on stories like this? You should not be passed off to pain management by a surgeon who knows how to improve your situation. I just feel like he is not doing his job, and perhaps he is being compensated for refusing surgery to save money by the agency that controls this.

Is this the response from the new surgeon who is making you wait 3 months to see if your discs heal themselves or is your upcoming appointment a new beginning with an evaluation for surgical consideration?

Jennifer

REPLY
1 reply
AlfredB | @ab6540183 | Jan 23, 2023
In reply to @jenniferhunter "@ab6540183 Alfred, Thank you for your kind words. I did consider medicine as a career at..." + (show)
@jenniferhunter

@ab6540183
Alfred, Thank you for your kind words. I did consider medicine as a career at one time, but I took a different path in research instead. I think you need to advocate for a surgical solution to your spine issues. How about calling your local news television station and asking for help? Are there reporters there who take on stories like this? You should not be passed off to pain management by a surgeon who knows how to improve your situation. I just feel like he is not doing his job, and perhaps he is being compensated for refusing surgery to save money by the agency that controls this.

Is this the response from the new surgeon who is making you wait 3 months to see if your discs heal themselves or is your upcoming appointment a new beginning with an evaluation for surgical consideration?

Jennifer

Jump to this post

Hi Jennifer,

how are you?

The new appointment is with a new neurosurgeon to get a new assessment for my spinal condition and resolution.

I have upcoming procedures with cortisone injections with the current pain management specialist to diagnose the source of the pain.

Unfortunately 2 days ago I was in my backyard and was trying to get away from a wasp that was coming near my face and I instinctively moved my head left and right a bit fast to avoid the insect. Now I have a new pain down the left side away from the spine towards the front. Check photo.

Thank you

Best regards

Alfred

Do you think that I might have caused some new damage or could it be a muscle/tendon strain?
REPLY
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