Implications of Long Term Drug Regime

Posted by jcaesar @jcaesar, Jun 19 11:21am

My wife has protruding discs in her vertebrae which result in chronic severe pain in her legs to the extent that she is unable to sleep for most nights. The solution is surgical but this being Canada, that is at least a year off. The physician has prescribed -
Tylenol 3 - to be taken 4X / day
Naproxen 250mg - to be taken 2X / day
on an ongoing indefinite basis. So with the prospect of being on this regime for at least a year or so, the following questions arise -

can the kidneys / liver safely handle this regime for a year?

does tolerance to the codeine kick in after a few months, minimizing its potency?

can the severe constipation that results from the opiod be handled with a fibre rich diet alone or are laxatives required?

Interested in more discussions like this? Go to the Chronic Pain Support Group.

Profile picture for jcaesar @jcaesar

Thanks so much to both of you for your responses. I wrote that one of her meds was Tylenol 3 - that's got 30mg codeine. This is Canada, so no, unless you go to a private clinic - no surgery. Of course, they do get around to you in a year or two or three even but that's hardly timely intervention. In the quest for an effective analgesic, we have already gone through Duloxtetine (the drowsiness side effect made that impossible to continue) and Gabapentin (no side effects but no analgesic effect either). Just prior to the current proposed regime that I have mentioned above, the latest combo was
Acetaminophen - 500
Naproxen - 250
and sad to say, like Gabapentin, no side effects nor analgesic effect. So we'll see what
Tylenol 3 - to be taken 4X / day
Naproxen 250mg - to be taken 2X / day
happens with the above.
"Therefore, sometimes extra fiber can exacerbate that situation". I can't understand why extra fibre would make things worse - that's kind of counter-intuitive. As for the homeostasis (that's nice word for tolerance), any idea as to how long that takes to manifest?

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For the purposes of this discussion tolerance and homeostasis refer to the same thing, but there is a significant difference when getting technical. Regardless of the fiber variety, sufficient liquid is necessary for proper utilization in the bowel. Since narcotics stop the peristolsis of the large intestine any liquid necessary is not available, thus the fiber itself can become a blocking agent. That is my experience anyway (many others too)- take it for what its worth. Each person is an individual and therefore different in their responses.

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Thanks to all of you - bajjerfan - ehjude - laura1970 - rockon79 - for those incredibly helpful responses. Yes, I didn’t mention my wife’s age - happens to be same as mine - 76, but other than this dreadful appearance of nerve pain which crescendoed gradually over the course of 2 years to its present nearly unbearable intensity, she’s perfectly healthy, so we have no complicating factors to worry about.
I am so glad that I asked about the difference between GabaPentin and PreGabalin since responses like these -

*GabaPentin was useless for me, but PreGabalin is in wonder drug category

*I’m on Pregabalin for the pain and it works pretty well but had a few side effects for the first couple of months

*I absolutely agree about the efficacy of PreGabalin

*Pain management then suggested PreGabalin, and on the second day of its use, the numbness was reduced 50% in both intensity and duration, and no noticeable side effects! It also greatly elevated my mood

are very encouraging to hear and even though anectodal (as opposed to a clinical trial evaluating efficiency), it’s enough to get us to ask her physician for an Rx for PreGabalin and with any luck it will prove to be as effective as it was for you responders.
“That back surgery worked wonders almost totally eliminating the pain and numbness. That lasted about 10 months and then the numbness came back with a vengeance”
That is horrifying to hear on a few levels. Was this major surgery or did you bounce back to normal quickly? Prior to the surgery, were you informed that it might not work or if it did, the result could be so fleeting? Did you even consider a second surgery following this giant disappointment?
“I’m on Pregabalin for the pain and it works pretty well” So are you on the PreGabalin only at this point or do you still have the breakthrough pain that requires Tramacet?
“If she has nerve pain radiating from her spine, Tramacet is a much better drug. It has been shown to work well for nerve pain.” If this is the case, why are you not taking Tramacet instead of PreGabalin?
Again, thanks to all for your kind participation in this thread.

REPLY
Profile picture for jcaesar @jcaesar

Thanks to all of you - bajjerfan - ehjude - laura1970 - rockon79 - for those incredibly helpful responses. Yes, I didn’t mention my wife’s age - happens to be same as mine - 76, but other than this dreadful appearance of nerve pain which crescendoed gradually over the course of 2 years to its present nearly unbearable intensity, she’s perfectly healthy, so we have no complicating factors to worry about.
I am so glad that I asked about the difference between GabaPentin and PreGabalin since responses like these -

*GabaPentin was useless for me, but PreGabalin is in wonder drug category

*I’m on Pregabalin for the pain and it works pretty well but had a few side effects for the first couple of months

*I absolutely agree about the efficacy of PreGabalin

*Pain management then suggested PreGabalin, and on the second day of its use, the numbness was reduced 50% in both intensity and duration, and no noticeable side effects! It also greatly elevated my mood

are very encouraging to hear and even though anectodal (as opposed to a clinical trial evaluating efficiency), it’s enough to get us to ask her physician for an Rx for PreGabalin and with any luck it will prove to be as effective as it was for you responders.
“That back surgery worked wonders almost totally eliminating the pain and numbness. That lasted about 10 months and then the numbness came back with a vengeance”
That is horrifying to hear on a few levels. Was this major surgery or did you bounce back to normal quickly? Prior to the surgery, were you informed that it might not work or if it did, the result could be so fleeting? Did you even consider a second surgery following this giant disappointment?
“I’m on Pregabalin for the pain and it works pretty well” So are you on the PreGabalin only at this point or do you still have the breakthrough pain that requires Tramacet?
“If she has nerve pain radiating from her spine, Tramacet is a much better drug. It has been shown to work well for nerve pain.” If this is the case, why are you not taking Tramacet instead of PreGabalin?
Again, thanks to all for your kind participation in this thread.

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I had major lumbar surgery with some bone removal, screws and cages etc. The passage ways for the spinal cord had narrowed and several discs had slipped all severely pinching on that nerve which resulted in tremendous pain and numbness in the right buttocks down the right leg and into my foot. That was the cause of the pain (the nerve literally being pinched), and since that fix remains there is much less pain if any. As it was explained to me the numbness is caused by the nerve being damaged from the stress of the pinching, for lack of a more medically accurate term. That damage will repair since the narrowing and slippage stress was removed by the surgery. But it takes time, thus the resurgence of the numbness and the need for medication. PreGabalin worked well for me as an individual with no noticeable side effects-plus it is not a narcotic although it does create a dependency needing titration to stop its use if withdrawal is to be avoided. Not everyone has the same experience though.

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So how much time has elapsed since the surgery and what have the surgeons told you as to how much more time it will take for the numbness to resolve? The surgery does indeed sound major so I’d like to know how long it took to resume normal activities? From your writing, it seems that the operation was a success and the residual numbness is kept well in check for the time being with the Pregabalin. You mention cages - certainly, I’m no surgeon but to me that implies fusion of some of the vertebrae and that in turn implies a decrease in the range of motion. If you don’t mind me asking - are you able to bend over to tie shoelaces or look after a garden pulling weeds etc.?

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Profile picture for jcaesar @jcaesar

So how much time has elapsed since the surgery and what have the surgeons told you as to how much more time it will take for the numbness to resolve? The surgery does indeed sound major so I’d like to know how long it took to resume normal activities? From your writing, it seems that the operation was a success and the residual numbness is kept well in check for the time being with the Pregabalin. You mention cages - certainly, I’m no surgeon but to me that implies fusion of some of the vertebrae and that in turn implies a decrease in the range of motion. If you don’t mind me asking - are you able to bend over to tie shoelaces or look after a garden pulling weeds etc.?

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I don't mind sharing my experience, hopefully it will be helpful as so many others were helpful to me on this site. It was a major surgery requiring a recovery of 6 months. For me it was uneventful and rather easy ( I was fortunate to have a really good surgeon-makes all the difference in the world) and less taxing than I thought. In my case only limited fusion was needed. I have a very good range of motion and can easily reach my feet and do bending chores. Nerve damage expresses itself in numbness and its repair is rather slow. The PreGabalin is not a panacea but it does work fairly well for me and is preferable over narcotics for long term use. The pain (which was so very debilitating) is virtually gone and the initial numbness is significantly reduced so the operation was quite a success. Unfortunately, sometimes even though the nerve is no longer "pinched" thus less or no pain, numbness caused by damage will reoccur. I have gotten used to no pain so now I am kind of a baby in dealing with the numbness . Such is being human, I guess. Wish you well.

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Thanks for that recap of your surgical experience. 6 months is a long time but when you consider that it's major major surgery, I shouldn't be surprised, particularly when the recovery was "uneventful and rather easy". I get the impression from all participants in the thread that Pregabalin is some sort of a wonder drug - effective for both pain and in your case, numbness and mood elevation! Ideally, surgery should have restored you to a state of complete health but I agree wholeheartedly with you that numbness is vastly preferable to "pain (which was so very debilitating)". I'm sure my wife would agree too as her life is quite miserable at the moment. So in our case, it would seem that surgery is the definitive answer but failing to get that in a timely fashion, Pregabalin would be the way to go.

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I've been taking hydrocodone for over 20 years for severe back issues. I didn't read where it said she takes an opioid though, I may have missed it. I also use them for bone pain from my WBC shots after chemotherapy. They work for me as they did when I started taking them. I will admit I use mag citrate about once a month to clean myself out. The constipation isn't really that bad for me. She can try stool softeners although those did nothing for me. Also try a wrap around back brace. At times when a disc gets hold of a nerve I find that the pressure of squeezing things together from the back brace really helps. I'll wear it while doing things around the house. It does make a difference. Hope she finds something that helps.

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Profile picture for jcaesar @jcaesar

Thanks for that recap of your surgical experience. 6 months is a long time but when you consider that it's major major surgery, I shouldn't be surprised, particularly when the recovery was "uneventful and rather easy". I get the impression from all participants in the thread that Pregabalin is some sort of a wonder drug - effective for both pain and in your case, numbness and mood elevation! Ideally, surgery should have restored you to a state of complete health but I agree wholeheartedly with you that numbness is vastly preferable to "pain (which was so very debilitating)". I'm sure my wife would agree too as her life is quite miserable at the moment. So in our case, it would seem that surgery is the definitive answer but failing to get that in a timely fashion, Pregabalin would be the way to go.

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make sure you have a GREAT surgeon. I mean GREAT. I have been thru many surgeries like these. The nerve pain meds never worked. The opiod did but there is only one for me Percocet (with tylenol) Oxycodone) without. Nothing else was stablizing for me.
IF nerves are damaged out of the spine they may or may not heal. It could take 10 years to know for sure. Other things can also impact recovery - more degeneration and scar tissue. Find a surgeon who doesn't have a lot of revisions. CONSIDER going for MORE (if surgery is the answer) instead of less because you might just need another surgery later. Talk to your doctor about that.
Yes, 6 months is correct to feel pretty normal. IF you follow doctors recovery orders and are in rehab.
Consider pain management for the numbness. I have permanent damage because the neurosurgeon waited 20 years. When I got to orthopedic surgery the surgeon took me in immediately as my disc fell out, and my bones grafted together (which stopped the pain!) but it had squeezed my nerves to their death (ergo, the numbness). I WOULDN'T TAKE MY SURGERY BACK!!! It was the best thing that ever happened. It was apparent after about a week being home - as I could sleep at night WITHOUT any PAIN!!! I am so grateful.

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Profile picture for jcaesar @jcaesar

Thanks so much to both of you for your responses. I wrote that one of her meds was Tylenol 3 - that's got 30mg codeine. This is Canada, so no, unless you go to a private clinic - no surgery. Of course, they do get around to you in a year or two or three even but that's hardly timely intervention. In the quest for an effective analgesic, we have already gone through Duloxtetine (the drowsiness side effect made that impossible to continue) and Gabapentin (no side effects but no analgesic effect either). Just prior to the current proposed regime that I have mentioned above, the latest combo was
Acetaminophen - 500
Naproxen - 250
and sad to say, like Gabapentin, no side effects nor analgesic effect. So we'll see what
Tylenol 3 - to be taken 4X / day
Naproxen 250mg - to be taken 2X / day
happens with the above.
"Therefore, sometimes extra fiber can exacerbate that situation". I can't understand why extra fibre would make things worse - that's kind of counter-intuitive. As for the homeostasis (that's nice word for tolerance), any idea as to how long that takes to manifest?

Jump to this post

Unlike popular opinion, fiber is not the answer for constipation. Water, water, water, water water. And for me, I use an enema bag when things are really bad from pain meds. It solves the blockage but to be honest, it does not solve the day-to-day need for a BM. I have found Senna to be helpful for the day to day.

Have you considered traveling for the surgery? There are many good healthcare providers internationally at reasonable prices and then a better timeline. Mexico? Portugal?

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Profile picture for owlspecialist6411 @owlspecialist6411

Unlike popular opinion, fiber is not the answer for constipation. Water, water, water, water water. And for me, I use an enema bag when things are really bad from pain meds. It solves the blockage but to be honest, it does not solve the day-to-day need for a BM. I have found Senna to be helpful for the day to day.

Have you considered traveling for the surgery? There are many good healthcare providers internationally at reasonable prices and then a better timeline. Mexico? Portugal?

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Miralax is an option for the constipation. It has an osmotic action, drawing water into the colon as opposed to fiber, which is a bulking agent

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