Sed Rate still elevated, but pain much improved

Posted by prestol @prestol, Oct 24 10:55am

I have tapered from 40 mg prednisone last February to a current dose of 9 mg. I’ve also been on methotrexate going on three months, which seems to have helped with pain. However, for the past six weeks since I got to 12.5 pred, my sed rate has been hovering between 34 and 39. Once it hit 51 with a CRP of 12, and my rheumatologist had me go back up on pred from 10 to 12.5 for a week. Both markers came down, but again now sed rate is up to 39. I have continuing shoulder pain and have been diagnosed with stage 4 osteoarthritis. I do not believe I still have PMR pain., but it is so hard to distinguish the different kinds of pain. Does anyone know if osteoarthritis can cause elevated inflammatory markers? Has anyone had a similar experience?

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Exactly, rule of thumb number one : treat the painful PMR symptoms regardless of which way inflammation markers are going . Symptoms and inflammation can, but don’t always, respond in tandem. Sounds maybe like your rhumo doesn’t entirely trust patients symptom reporting, puts more emphasis on blood results?
All the best to you for your health.
Maye

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@maye

Exactly, rule of thumb number one : treat the painful PMR symptoms regardless of which way inflammation markers are going . Symptoms and inflammation can, but don’t always, respond in tandem. Sounds maybe like your rhumo doesn’t entirely trust patients symptom reporting, puts more emphasis on blood results?
All the best to you for your health.
Maye

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"Sounds maybe like your rhumo doesn’t entirely trust patients symptom reporting, puts more emphasis on blood results?"
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Maybe for the first year or so but later on my inflammation markers were rarely checked. I think she was just surprised that my inflammation markers were still elevated on 25 mg of prednisone. Supposedly PMR responds to "low dose" prednisone.

Initially, I was told to find a "stable dose" of prednisone that controlled my symptoms. My rheumatologist wasn't overly concerned about what the dose was but 35 mg was a "moderately high" dose and not really a low dose. We eventually settled on 40 mg as my starting dose.

When I was still on 10 mg of prednisone 10 years after being diagnosed with PMR, I asked if my diagnosis was correct. My theumatologist said PMR was my "primary diagnosis" but there were other things going on in addition to PMR.

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Hey DadCue
Yes “primary diagnosis “ of PMR makes perfect sense .
Unfortunately still have to look out for other underlying health problems as they arise ( or not, let’s hope so )

I’m trying to keep it simple, just PMR so far 🤞😃

Wishing you and everyone stays as well as possible.
Maye

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@dadcue

"Does anyone know if osteoarthritis can cause elevated inflammatory markers?"
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Anything in medical terminology that has the suffix -itis is associated with inflammation. Osteoarthritis is caused by inflammation due to mechanical wear and tear on the joints. It isn't chronic inflammation associated with autoimmune disorders but it is inflammation nevertheless.

How high ESR and CRP are elevated probably depends on many factors but PMR is NOT helpful if you already have osteoarthritis. I think PMR compounds the pain from osteoarthritis. Since PMR inflammation is in the area surrounding the joints and not inside the joint -- everything starts to hurt.

I think it is safe to say that osteoarthritis can cause elevated ESR and CRP levels but probably not chronically all the time. I also believe chronically elevated inflammation markers "aggravates" osteoarthritis.

"C-reactive protein (CRP) levels can be elevated in osteoarthritis (OA) patients. In addition to indicating systemic inflammation, it is suggested that CRP itself can play a role in OA development."

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@dadcue, this is really interesting about the interplay between osteoarthritis and PMR. I first had severe lumbar spinal pain (sciatica) about six months before PMR diagnosis, when MRI revealed spinal stenosis and many herniated discs. Diagnoses of shoulder, neck and knee arthritis soon followed. I was surprised to learn these issues had been developing for a good while with no symptoms, so it does seem likely the PMR contributed to the OA pain rearing its ugly head. Can you send us the link to the article you quoted about CRP playing a role in OA development?

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@prestol

@dadcue, this is really interesting about the interplay between osteoarthritis and PMR. I first had severe lumbar spinal pain (sciatica) about six months before PMR diagnosis, when MRI revealed spinal stenosis and many herniated discs. Diagnoses of shoulder, neck and knee arthritis soon followed. I was surprised to learn these issues had been developing for a good while with no symptoms, so it does seem likely the PMR contributed to the OA pain rearing its ugly head. Can you send us the link to the article you quoted about CRP playing a role in OA development?

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The study was done with mice. But the quote pertained to humans.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1063458418314730#:~:text=C%2Dreactive%20protein%20(CRP)
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There is evidence that inflammatory biomarkers are elevated in osteoarthritis in humans. The title of the following link is: Inflammatory Biomarkers in Osteoarthritis

"In recent years, there has been a large shift in the understanding of OA as a “wear and tear” disease to an inflammatory disease."
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4630669/#:~:text=SF%20levels%20of%20IL%2D6,of%20healthy%20controls(94).
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My personal experience with arthritis is the following:

I developed degenerative osteoarthritis in one knee caused by a sports injury in high school. At the age of 25, I was told that I needed a knee replacement but I had to wait until I was 60 years old to do a knee replacement.

An autoimmune inflammatory arthritis called "reactive arthritis" was diagnosed when I was 32 years old. This inflammatory arthritis liked to attack my spine. However, the inflammation wasn't confined to my spine.
https://www.niams.nih.gov/health-topics/reactive-arthritis
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PMR was diagnosed when I was 52. When PMR was diagnosed, I had shoulder pain that hurt so much that I couldn't lift my arms. I also had "generalized" body pain but I told my rheumatologist that some of the places that hurt were always painful. The shoulder pain was something new and the acute onset and high ESR and CRP along with a rapid response to prednisone was the basis for diagnosing PMR. The rapid response to prednisone alone wasn't diagnostic of PMR because I would say my reactive arthritis flares responded faster to prednisone than PMR did. I never needed to take Prednisone on a long term basis to treat flares of reactive arthritis. However, my rheumatologist said reactive arthritis wasn't treated with prednisone.
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Now I have severe lumbar spinal stenosis that is called "degenerative osteoarthritis" but my spine was where my autoimmune reactive arthritis liked to attack the most. When spinal stenosis was diagnosed, I had acute onset neurological changes along with radicular leg pain (sciatica). An MRI revealed the severe spinal stenosis. I told a spine surgeon that I didn't know I had a "bad back." The surgeon said the kind of damage I had didn't happen overnight. He asked me if I ever had back pain but I said I didn't have any pain when I took prednisone.

I now have arthritis everywhere they look. My shoulders don't hurt anymore and seem to be unscathed. I don't think I have any arthritis in my shoulders.

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@dadcue

The study was done with mice. But the quote pertained to humans.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1063458418314730#:~:text=C%2Dreactive%20protein%20(CRP)
---------------------
There is evidence that inflammatory biomarkers are elevated in osteoarthritis in humans. The title of the following link is: Inflammatory Biomarkers in Osteoarthritis

"In recent years, there has been a large shift in the understanding of OA as a “wear and tear” disease to an inflammatory disease."
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4630669/#:~:text=SF%20levels%20of%20IL%2D6,of%20healthy%20controls(94).
-----------------------
My personal experience with arthritis is the following:

I developed degenerative osteoarthritis in one knee caused by a sports injury in high school. At the age of 25, I was told that I needed a knee replacement but I had to wait until I was 60 years old to do a knee replacement.

An autoimmune inflammatory arthritis called "reactive arthritis" was diagnosed when I was 32 years old. This inflammatory arthritis liked to attack my spine. However, the inflammation wasn't confined to my spine.
https://www.niams.nih.gov/health-topics/reactive-arthritis
--------------------
PMR was diagnosed when I was 52. When PMR was diagnosed, I had shoulder pain that hurt so much that I couldn't lift my arms. I also had "generalized" body pain but I told my rheumatologist that some of the places that hurt were always painful. The shoulder pain was something new and the acute onset and high ESR and CRP along with a rapid response to prednisone was the basis for diagnosing PMR. The rapid response to prednisone alone wasn't diagnostic of PMR because I would say my reactive arthritis flares responded faster to prednisone than PMR did. I never needed to take Prednisone on a long term basis to treat flares of reactive arthritis. However, my rheumatologist said reactive arthritis wasn't treated with prednisone.
----------------------
Now I have severe lumbar spinal stenosis that is called "degenerative osteoarthritis" but my spine was where my autoimmune reactive arthritis liked to attack the most. When spinal stenosis was diagnosed, I had acute onset neurological changes along with radicular leg pain (sciatica). An MRI revealed the severe spinal stenosis. I told a spine surgeon that I didn't know I had a "bad back." The surgeon said the kind of damage I had didn't happen overnight. He asked me if I ever had back pain but I said I didn't have any pain when I took prednisone.

I now have arthritis everywhere they look. My shoulders don't hurt anymore and seem to be unscathed. I don't think I have any arthritis in my shoulders.

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Good research.

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In reply to @seniormed "Good research." + (show)
@seniormed

Good research.

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Yes, really interesting. Makes me wonder if my development of Crohn’s in my late 50s involved elevated CRP. I was not very much aware of my lab values at the time, but perhaps “chronic inflammation” has been a factor for a long time. Thank you, Dad cue.

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@prestol

Yes, really interesting. Makes me wonder if my development of Crohn’s in my late 50s involved elevated CRP. I was not very much aware of my lab values at the time, but perhaps “chronic inflammation” has been a factor for a long time. Thank you, Dad cue.

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Crohn's disease might lead to an inflammatory arthritis in the same family with reactive arthritis.
https://www.webmd.com/ibd-crohns-disease/crohns-disease/arthritis-crohns-disease

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