Puzzled by drug prices

Posted by northoftheborder @northoftheborder, Aug 25 8:51pm

Firmagon and Orgovyx would cost the same in Canada if I were uninsured (about US$240/month), but it looks like Orgovyx is 5× as expensive as Firmagon in the U.S. Since they're both still under patent and don't have generic substitutes, I'm curious why that is.

(Context: someone in the U.S. referred to Orgovyx as a more-expensive treatment, and I didn't understand what they meant at first.)

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@jeffmarc

Forgot to mention that next year, the Medicare cap will be $2000. After that, you pay nothing.

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Probably not that simple. My understanding is that CMS is in scramble mode because of this cap. Insurors, predictably, planned to make up for the lost revenue by increasing premiums proportionately. This being an election year, the Biden administration came up with some enormous lump sum to make up the difference to the insurors. Of course that money doesn't cost anything, right? 🙂

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@chipe

The free market system in the States dictates the prices of medicines. The pharmaceutical companies here in the USA are totally for profit, and the more, the better. That is why there is/was a big trend for people from the States to mail-order their scripts from Canada.

When there is no generic equivalent, users are at the mercy of the pharmaceutical company. They must, of course, and rightfully so, reimburse themselves for the years of research, trials, etc. Yet they must also please their stockholders, the latter being the holy grail. I have attached a file for the 2023 profits for the top 10 pharmaceutical companies.

A lot of people make a lot of money over prescriptions. If you are uninsured then it's really tough to get the scripts you need because you can't afford them. I am so thankful I have Medicare and a Medicare advantage health plan that is provided to me by my pension system.

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Gross earnings aren't very meaningful when there's no cost basis. It always gets the natives riled up to hear about greedy _____ making BILLIONS in profit.

You need to look at the net earnings margin so you can see how earnings compared to revenue on a percentage basis.

I looked up an analysis of net earnings margin in % for all sectors and found that drug manufacturing (general) came in at 14%, which was the 15th highest among sectors in the economy. The highest was Financial Data and Stock Exchanges at 29.6%. Given the risk, regulation and R&D involved that doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

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In the US if your income is below four times the poverty level most of the major companies will give you expensive newer drugs for free, as you mentioned. Many of the insurance drug plans will give you a major discount under the same conditions especially if over 65 under Medicare.

The problem is that many people live paycheck to paycheck and paying the co-pays is more than lot of people can afford.

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@russ777

Gross earnings aren't very meaningful when there's no cost basis. It always gets the natives riled up to hear about greedy _____ making BILLIONS in profit.

You need to look at the net earnings margin so you can see how earnings compared to revenue on a percentage basis.

I looked up an analysis of net earnings margin in % for all sectors and found that drug manufacturing (general) came in at 14%, which was the 15th highest among sectors in the economy. The highest was Financial Data and Stock Exchanges at 29.6%. Given the risk, regulation and R&D involved that doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

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That chart is not gross earnings, that chart is their 2023 net income.

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I don't think the pharma companies are especially more evil than any other big multinationals (low bar, I know), but bigcorps will always try to get away with as much as they can, and the politicians we elect let them get away with a lot.

Given that most of their sales worldwide are covered by taxpayers, it would be more cost-efficient for governments to fund all the R&D themselves (they already fund much of it through universities), and then make the results available patent-free to generic manufacturers. They'd easily make back the money (and more) in lower drug costs for Medicare, the UK NHS, and all the other taxpayer-funded health programmes around the world (and also in savings on international medical aid for poorer countries).

Will it happen? I doubt it.

(ok, I try to avoid politics here, so end of rant 🙂 )

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@chipe

That chart is not gross earnings, that chart is their 2023 net income.

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You're right, I misstated that. But the point is the difference between that and margin. 14% sounds a lot different from XX Billion $s.

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@russ777

You're right, I misstated that. But the point is the difference between that and margin. 14% sounds a lot different from XX Billion $s.

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Yes, it does! When I was a kid and worked for Burger King, I remember the District Manager coming into our store and reaming out the manager because they hadn't met the 20% net profit bottom line for two months—they missed it by 1%, lol. It's everywhere!

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@chipe

Yes, it does! When I was a kid and worked for Burger King, I remember the District Manager coming into our store and reaming out the manager because they hadn't met the 20% net profit bottom line for two months—they missed it by 1%, lol. It's everywhere!

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Different sectors work with different profit margins -- there's no standard. For example, the big Canadian grocery chains get by with a post-tax net income of 2–4% of gross sales because they're high-volume businesses. I have no idea what the baseline would be for pharma.

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@jeffmarc

We pay more in the United States than any other country in the world for almost every drug. It’s because our Congress has made it very difficult for any company and Medicare to negotiate pricing. They finally passed a bill to allow Medicare to negotiate prices. This reduced the Price of 10 drugs down considerably and more will be done in the next few years. they also capped insulin at $35 a month when some companies were charging $400.

If you’re on Medicare, you pay a maximum of $8000. Once that is paid you pay no more for the year. That $8000 isn’t just based on what you pay it’s also is based on what your provider pays. In my case paying $2,300 for Darolutamide in January resulted in my paying zero dollars for drugs for the rest of the year. That’s because Darolutamide is $13,000 so the $8000 limit was reached immediately. My Orgovyx which cost $3000 was free for the rest of the year.

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Here in Belgium the retail price is 170Euro (190USD) for Orgovyx but free for everyone (insurance is universal). I think these prices are negotiated at the European level so they have a bit of leverage.

The drug companies do need to recoup their investment though (including for any failed drugs along the way) so it looks like the US market is covering a lot of this cost and other markets get the lower rates (which is not fair I know).

On the other hand we don't have drugs available until later than the US: Orgovyx was only available in Nov 2023 in Belgium.

So if you need lifesaving drugs and can pay or have good insurance, the US model has positive points.

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