Does declining CBC matter, or only once fully out of range?

Posted by lorenzom @lorenzom, Jul 8 4:27pm

My 5 year old daughter has had 3 CBC / complete blood count tests, each essentially 6 months apart. In the span of this year, nearly all CBC metrics have decreased, to the point that on the graphed results nearly all metrics are smooth lines downward (smooth, continuous trends across 3 different test dates). Multiple metrics (WBC, RBC, hematocrit, neutrophils, and more) are nearly low enough to be lower than the reference range, but at this moment in time none are fully low. At the rate of decline, absolute neutrophils will be low within a month, WBC to follow soon (of course these trends can change).

My concern is if any of these trends continue then my daughter will within months be low on, well, all her actual blood counts. The only items not declining are MCH and MCHC. My daughter is suspected of having an immune or autoimmune issue and has a complicated medical history, is under the care of multiple specialists whom we do have great and open relationships with. Her rheumatologist today questions whether the declining CBC metrics are useful in themselves and indicated that we need to wait until they are fully out of range / not just borderline low. My gut tells me there is more diagnostic value to this and I don't want my child to suffer longer, but I am somewhat at a loss of next steps, and cautious to not get labeled an overly worrying and non-complying father.

Should we see a hematologist or another specialist? My daughter's doctors are amazing, truly, and so very caring and thorough in their own fields, but I worry there is some isolation that might limit their view. My daughter currently shrieks in pain regularly due to now having eye inflammation (traveling to a specialist hospital in a few days for a deeper workup on that) so I am admittedly looking for every angle and possible path forward. Thanks.

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@loribmt

There will always be a doctor or two who feel their toes are being stepped on a bit. I’ve had that happen to me with my PCP and thankfully my husband and I kept pushing because my situation turned out to be dire.
My specialists, on the other hand, welcomed input and we discussed my treatment plans openly and honestly. Questions were never declined and concerns were never dismissed. It’s important that we respect their education and experience. But it’s ok to also ask questions. You can assure your daughter’s doctors that you’re not trying to be helicopter parents but you’re really feeling helpless and don’t want to miss anything.

Here’s an example I can give for how my ‘helicopter’ husband would handle adding tests to blood work. I had a bone marrow transplant that required hundreds of blood tests over the course of my treatment and beyond. In the initial months right after transplant it’s critical to avoid any viral infections. So there were frequent tests for CMV, a virus that could be serious at that point. Sometimes my husband worried that too much time went between tests. (It didn’t but my husband was a worry-wort) So during my daily exams he’d say something like: “Would it hurt to get a new CMV reading added to her blood test, just to make sure nothing’s going on with that?” My doctor would either say, “That’s a not a bad idea so, let’s add that onto her CBC.” or “CMV was still undetectable last week. Let’s give it another week, then add the test.” We didn’t step on toes but it allowed my doctor to make the choice and my husband to hear the answer why it’s not necessary this time. Gave respect to the doctor and validation to my husband. Win/win. (As the patient, I was just along for the ride! LOL).

I think you’ll get the ‘feels’ when you near the line that you don’t want to cross. But, you are also the advocate for your little girl’s health. So if you’re concerned something may be missing from her treatment it is certainly in your prerogative as a parent to bring up a new subject.

I’m still reeling at your earlier comment from doctors about your daughter faking illness and trying to get attention. That would be a doctor who would never see my little girl’s face again! Your daughter clearly has a challenging medical condition. It’s taking its toll not only on her but also on her parents. Doctor’s should never be dismissive and I’m so sorry you’ve had that experience!

It does sound to me as though you have a really good team of doctors that are taking this matter seriously and I think there is mutual respect between parents and physicians. You can be matter of fact and assertive while being respectful. But this is your little girl, so finding answers is paramount.
Gosh, I really hope you can get some relief for her eye condition next! That sounds awful. Please let me know how the appointment goes.

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"Helicopter husband" would be me. I'm glad you had a supportive husband. Thanks for reaffirming that I am not overboard for asking for additional workup.

In pediatrics it seems there is somewhat of a tendency to dismiss kids, and while I didn't understand at first I've learned to deal with the "95%" idea. If only 5% of symptoms ever warrant more than time to resolve (maybe with a boost from antibiotics) then most of the time doctors can be correct dismissing everything! The whole "horses, not zebras" thing.

We had been lucky enough to score a next-day appointment (due to a cancellation) with a very well regarded pediatric pulmonologist who ordered labs and set all the wheels in motion going forward. And "lucky enough" that my daughter was so outwardly symptomatic that the doctor was able to see the severity. If it wasn't for that visit, I don't know if we would have been "elevated" to the "yes, this kid needs help" status.

What makes my blood figuratively boil is we tend to see only doctors within our local hospital network, because the network is very modern, well regarded, and has the latest and best records system. Any provider can simply click two buttons and see all tests, vitals, diagnoses, and more visually trended. Yet, until we entered the realm of specialists (also in network, but in a new and very well funded specialty center), every provider, while being kind and sympathetic, acted as if each occurrence was singular and in a vacuum. We literally had to bring paper printouts to show providers that we were not drug-seeking Munchausen parents! My point is not "poor us", but rather unless you have the time, resources, will, and sheer stubbornness it stands to reason that many health issues are diagnosed in teen and early adult years because only then is the patient taken seriously enough. Anyway, rant over.

Thank you so much for help and support - you are wonderful!

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@slkanowitz

Just a few comments to hopefully help you and your daughter. A hematologist is a must IMO as is a peripheral smear which can be ordered by any of her docs. Autoimmune disorders are often paradoxically combined with immune deficiency that she apparently has, making her prone to infections. She would also benefit from a serum protein electrophoresis blood test which any doctor can order. This detects abnormal proteins from bone marrow that may be related. The Avise CTD, connective tissue disease, blood test ordered by rheumatologist is more sensitive than the standard autoimmune antibody tests like ANA and RA, and tests for many AI disorders, so helpful in determining which if any are brewing. Your “gut” is an extremely important part of your tool box as a parent and any good doctor will respect your “gut” and act on it. I usually preface my suggestions for additional testing by saying something like “sSo what would you think of adding/checking …?” to preserve egos. Or “I have heard …might be helpful , is that a test we could do?” You plant the seed, they decide whether to do it. With kids every blood draw is traumatic so combining and anticipating next steps (sometimes an extra tube drawn for add ons) helps. Most labs keep serum 7 days for add ons, a crucial window of time.
You are being incredibly sensitive and responsible, taking care to research and advocate for her. I hope you get answers soon, effective treatments and she gets better quickly! Hugs!!

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Thank you! This is very helpful and I will look into all these tests very soon. I'm about to pick up my daughter from camp and drive to Philly for an overnight stay - we have an appointment early tomorrow and what is a 40 minute drive in good traffic can be a 3+ hour drive during rush hour so we don't chance it.

Again, thank you so much for the insights and ideas.

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One other thought to discuss with her Drs, particularly pulmonologist: when she starts kindergarten she will be exposed to so many germs, mostly respiratory, and she may benefit from a daily preventative antibiotic to ward off bacterial infections. It won’t help for viruses, so immunizations are important. However with immune deficiency, the antibody response to vaccines may be weak and not as effective as one would like. Trying to limit her exposure to sick kids is important but certainly not easy once kids are in school. If she’s been in preschool she may be already developing some tolerance to all the germs floating around! Please keep us updated.

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@lorenzom

Thank you! This is very helpful and I will look into all these tests very soon. I'm about to pick up my daughter from camp and drive to Philly for an overnight stay - we have an appointment early tomorrow and what is a 40 minute drive in good traffic can be a 3+ hour drive during rush hour so we don't chance it.

Again, thank you so much for the insights and ideas.

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Good morning, @lorenzom. Just wanted to pop in to see how your little girl is doing after her visit with the eye specialist. I hope her doctor was able to offer some relief from the pain she’s been experiencing. Sending a gentle hug.

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