Final decision on treatment: Viewray or Truebeam?

Posted by bl2023 @bl2023, May 29, 2023

Final decision on treatment: Viewray at UCLA or Truebeam at Kaiser
Well, after getting the word this last January 24 that I had G7(4+3), 3 lesions rt side, 1 lesion left side, and a Decipher low risk of 0.26, and rabbit holes of research and education, I’m close to deciding. I have to thank you on this and other forums for giving me your experience and insights. It’s really amazing to be able to talk to guys about their most personal details and struggles you’ve dealt with and I’m very grateful.

So. I’d like to hear from any and all that have any insights on their experiences with the above treatment options: Viewray vs. Truebeam. Bring it on.

Interested in more discussions like this? Go to the Prostate Cancer Support Group.

ViewRay is photon. The issue also has to do with how many beams. MRIdian has up to 18 beams, energy divided into 18 paths. Photon has all the energy through only two paths. As a result there are more skin burns with proton. Proton also adds 5 mm margins around tumors, MRIdian adds 3mm so less normal tissue is exposed with MRIdian. Adaptive radiotherapy and automatic gating significantly lower the risk of side effects with MRIdian which is about 50% less than other CT guided radiotherapy. There are no well designed randomized studies comparing proton with photon. No evidence that 45 proton sessions will do better than 5 with MRI-Linac.

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@mperloe

I was 69 when my GL4+3 was discovered. I traveled from Atlanta to UCLA to get a PET scan which showed involvement just outside the gland in the seminal vesicle which didn't show up on MRI or CT scan. After speaking with a number of urologic oncologists and radiation oncologists I learned about ViewRay's MRIdian SBRT with Dr. Kishan at UCLA. I opted for this route as I was able to avoid fiducials and SpaceOAR. MRIdian offered automatic gating which shut off the beam should the rectum or bladder enter the beams path or the prostate move outside the treatment path. Neither proton or Truebeam offered that. While providers of proton therapy champion the Bragg effect, clinical trials have not shown proton superior to photon therapy or that it is associated with fewer side effects. Proton has just two beams vs 15 with MRIdian. This results in a higher risk of skin burns with proton treatment. In that the MIRAGE studies show a 40-60% reduction in early radiation side effects with MRIdian SBRT. And I never understood why someone would want to do 45 sessions when they can do just as well and possibly better with 5.

Dr. Kishan and the entire UCLA team made this an easy 2 weeks for 5 treatment sessions. I am now 2.5 years out from treatment and my PSA is undetectable.

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Am glad to read about your experience with ViewRay's MRIdian SBRT. I am considering using this 5 treatment option as well. My understanding is it combines a high tech MRI with proton radiation. However, jackm9005 just replied to me saying "I recently had my consultation and was told that protons are not delivered using the Mridian ViewRay, only photons. Has something to do with the magnets in the MRI and protons." So, what did you receive protons or photons? The clear definition I found was "The key difference between the two in terms of radiation therapy: Like an x-ray, photon beams will pass through the body and have an exit point, whereas protons can be stopped in tissue without a significant amount exiting the body." Who wants to have an exit dose of photons passing right thru the prostate and beyond? Hopefully you will tell me you had protons.
What did they use to map you, an MRI scan, a CT scan or a PET scan?
If I have two GL 3+3 and a GL 3+4 do you think all three could be zapped in 5 treatments?

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@mperloe

I was 69 when my GL4+3 was discovered. I traveled from Atlanta to UCLA to get a PET scan which showed involvement just outside the gland in the seminal vesicle which didn't show up on MRI or CT scan. After speaking with a number of urologic oncologists and radiation oncologists I learned about ViewRay's MRIdian SBRT with Dr. Kishan at UCLA. I opted for this route as I was able to avoid fiducials and SpaceOAR. MRIdian offered automatic gating which shut off the beam should the rectum or bladder enter the beams path or the prostate move outside the treatment path. Neither proton or Truebeam offered that. While providers of proton therapy champion the Bragg effect, clinical trials have not shown proton superior to photon therapy or that it is associated with fewer side effects. Proton has just two beams vs 15 with MRIdian. This results in a higher risk of skin burns with proton treatment. In that the MIRAGE studies show a 40-60% reduction in early radiation side effects with MRIdian SBRT. And I never understood why someone would want to do 45 sessions when they can do just as well and possibly better with 5.

Dr. Kishan and the entire UCLA team made this an easy 2 weeks for 5 treatment sessions. I am now 2.5 years out from treatment and my PSA is undetectable.

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See my comment below about my 5 proton treatments at Mayo Phoenix. Other than my five inch tan circles on my hips where the radiation entered, I would not even know anything was done. I did have the SpaceOar Gel inserted. I still wonder if they did give me the correct dose as I expected at least some side effects.

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@jb2buckwater

Bl2023, I received proton Beam SBRT at Mayo Clinic Rochester. Not certain whether ViewRay or TrueBeam offer both Proton and Photon Beam options. The Proton Beam provides a radiation which enters the Prostate but does not exitafter performing its function. Photons enter and then exit which means they may have a higher chance of negatively impacying healthy cells outside the Prostate. This treatment required that I make the trip from Portland, OR to Minnesota for treatment... well worth the effort.
Best wishes for a successful outcome regardless of treatment choice.

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I did my 5-day Proton treatment at Mayo Phoenix and other than the one 5-inch tan circle on each hip I would never know anything was even done to me. PS the weather is great here in Phoenix in the fall and the Arizona Fall League baseball season is great baseball . Talking Stick ballpark is three exits away on the 101 for entertainment in the afternoon and evenings.

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@drj

I went the same Viewray route as you but I'm one year behind you. My UCLA radiation oncologist, Dr. Reddy, employed the hydrogel spacer because my large prostate was pressed against the prostate (the pre-/post hydrogel images were dramatic.) I suffered zero colorectal post-radiation effects as a result. Five treatments (around 30 minutes) in 10 days was an amazing process. Excellent staff.
My gleason 9 disease has responded well by all markers and tests.
Good luck.

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Thanks and continued good health.

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Welcome to the ViewRay alumni. It would be great if we all could speak out to help alleviate fears and get people to screen earlier.

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@mperloe

I was 69 when my GL4+3 was discovered. I traveled from Atlanta to UCLA to get a PET scan which showed involvement just outside the gland in the seminal vesicle which didn't show up on MRI or CT scan. After speaking with a number of urologic oncologists and radiation oncologists I learned about ViewRay's MRIdian SBRT with Dr. Kishan at UCLA. I opted for this route as I was able to avoid fiducials and SpaceOAR. MRIdian offered automatic gating which shut off the beam should the rectum or bladder enter the beams path or the prostate move outside the treatment path. Neither proton or Truebeam offered that. While providers of proton therapy champion the Bragg effect, clinical trials have not shown proton superior to photon therapy or that it is associated with fewer side effects. Proton has just two beams vs 15 with MRIdian. This results in a higher risk of skin burns with proton treatment. In that the MIRAGE studies show a 40-60% reduction in early radiation side effects with MRIdian SBRT. And I never understood why someone would want to do 45 sessions when they can do just as well and possibly better with 5.

Dr. Kishan and the entire UCLA team made this an easy 2 weeks for 5 treatment sessions. I am now 2.5 years out from treatment and my PSA is undetectable.

Jump to this post

I went the same Viewray route as you but I'm one year behind you. My UCLA radiation oncologist, Dr. Reddy, employed the hydrogel spacer because my large prostate was pressed against the prostate (the pre-/post hydrogel images were dramatic.) I suffered zero colorectal post-radiation effects as a result. Five treatments (around 30 minutes) in 10 days was an amazing process. Excellent staff.
My gleason 9 disease has responded well by all markers and tests.
Good luck.

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@mperloe

I doubt we will see one and done. A single brachy session was not as effective as two. Skins burns may be an issue with proton 2 or 5 SBRT. The FORT trial is considering 2 vs 5 sessions of ViewRay MRIdian.

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Dr. Mark, what do you think snd what have you heard about the FORT 2 vs 5 Sbrt treatment? Greater risks with fewer treatments but higher doses?

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@mperloe

I was 69 when my GL4+3 was discovered. I traveled from Atlanta to UCLA to get a PET scan which showed involvement just outside the gland in the seminal vesicle which didn't show up on MRI or CT scan. After speaking with a number of urologic oncologists and radiation oncologists I learned about ViewRay's MRIdian SBRT with Dr. Kishan at UCLA. I opted for this route as I was able to avoid fiducials and SpaceOAR. MRIdian offered automatic gating which shut off the beam should the rectum or bladder enter the beams path or the prostate move outside the treatment path. Neither proton or Truebeam offered that. While providers of proton therapy champion the Bragg effect, clinical trials have not shown proton superior to photon therapy or that it is associated with fewer side effects. Proton has just two beams vs 15 with MRIdian. This results in a higher risk of skin burns with proton treatment. In that the MIRAGE studies show a 40-60% reduction in early radiation side effects with MRIdian SBRT. And I never understood why someone would want to do 45 sessions when they can do just as well and possibly better with 5.

Dr. Kishan and the entire UCLA team made this an easy 2 weeks for 5 treatment sessions. I am now 2.5 years out from treatment and my PSA is undetectable.

Jump to this post

Any info re 2 vs 5 sessions for Viewray/Sbrt?

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@jb2buckwater

Proton Beam is also now offered at 5 sessions. My understanding is that there are studies of 2 session treatments and perhaps even one a done approaches.

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I doubt we will see one and done. A single brachy session was not as effective as two. Skins burns may be an issue with proton 2 or 5 SBRT. The FORT trial is considering 2 vs 5 sessions of ViewRay MRIdian.

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