Final decision on treatment: Viewray or Truebeam?

Posted by bl2023 @bl2023, May 29, 2023

Final decision on treatment: Viewray at UCLA or Truebeam at Kaiser
Well, after getting the word this last January 24 that I had G7(4+3), 3 lesions rt side, 1 lesion left side, and a Decipher low risk of 0.26, and rabbit holes of research and education, I’m close to deciding. I have to thank you on this and other forums for giving me your experience and insights. It’s really amazing to be able to talk to guys about their most personal details and struggles you’ve dealt with and I’m very grateful.

So. I’d like to hear from any and all that have any insights on their experiences with the above treatment options: Viewray vs. Truebeam. Bring it on.

Interested in more discussions like this? Go to the Prostate Cancer Support Group.

I found a few hospitals that are listed online as still using Mridian but I have not called them to confirm:
UCLA Health Jonsson Comprehensive Cancer Center
UCLA Health
Hoag
New York-Presbyterian David Koch Center
Henry Ford Health
Baptist Health Miami Cancer Institute

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ViewRay has 1/2 the immediate side effects compared to Varian according to UCLA and they have both.
MRIdian for me, finished in March and went straight back to work 5 treatments in a row, no SpaceOar. No ED or incontinence, everything is excellent and 0 changes to QOL.
Small bother side effects for 2-4 weeks.

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My Decipher test came back as low risk. However two different radiologist/oncologist both stated the curative radiation therapy was warranted. I am in my 4th week of a 6 week M-F treatment plan for pencil Proton Radiation.

I agreed with radiation treatment. My bone scan was negative and my pet scan was negative. I was told cancer confined to prostrate. For me curing cancer not letting it grow was much better mentally than worrying about it growing outside of prostrate. The wait and see option was never presented to me even though my Decipher was "low risk." They did say my Decipher contradicted the biopsies which the worse ones were 4+3=7.

This Mayo Clinic Connect is a great source of information. I am glad that Mayo Clinic set it up. What I see though is still the disagreements withing oncologist/radiologist about photon and proton. I hope more studies are done to help patients have the information to make decisions. And maybe someday there will be a scientific consensus among radiologist/oncologist of what is best for patient cure and not personal opinions and bias.

I keep reading about Meridian and others having proton but only 5 treatments. I have a ICD/Pacemaker so the physics department at my Proton provider recommended pencil beam.

Wish I knew more about Pencil Beam. My question and maybe some of you know is when you get Pencil Beam does one beam come down or is there a multitude of beams? If entire prostrate is being treated how do you get pencil beam to all? When you say pencil beam you think it is a single beam the size of a pencil. That would seem like there would have to be hundreds of pencil beams.

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Starting MRIdian next week at Dana Farber/Brigham & Womens in Boston.
5 treatments over 2 weeks.
Any experiences with this type tratment?

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GL 4+3 is intermediate unfavorable which gets the PET ordered or should. Not sure what you mean by Gleason 20??

I was part of a PSMA PET study at UCLA and chose to push for it.

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@mperloe

PSA was 0.3 when PET was positive. It is CT so yes the resolution is much greater with MRI, but the PET is far more sensitive because the radioactive tracer binds to PSMA on the cancer cells surface.

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Do you recall what your Gleason number was? Perhaps 20 or higher which caused a PET to be done for you?

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PSA was 0.3 when PET was positive. It is CT so yes the resolution is much greater with MRI, but the PET is far more sensitive because the radioactive tracer binds to PSMA on the cancer cells surface.

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@mperloe

I was 69 when my GL4+3 was discovered. I traveled from Atlanta to UCLA to get a PET scan which showed involvement just outside the gland in the seminal vesicle which didn't show up on MRI or CT scan. After speaking with a number of urologic oncologists and radiation oncologists I learned about ViewRay's MRIdian SBRT with Dr. Kishan at UCLA. I opted for this route as I was able to avoid fiducials and SpaceOAR. MRIdian offered automatic gating which shut off the beam should the rectum or bladder enter the beams path or the prostate move outside the treatment path. Neither proton or Truebeam offered that. While providers of proton therapy champion the Bragg effect, clinical trials have not shown proton superior to photon therapy or that it is associated with fewer side effects. Proton has just two beams vs 15 with MRIdian. This results in a higher risk of skin burns with proton treatment. In that the MIRAGE studies show a 40-60% reduction in early radiation side effects with MRIdian SBRT. And I never understood why someone would want to do 45 sessions when they can do just as well and possibly better with 5.

Dr. Kishan and the entire UCLA team made this an easy 2 weeks for 5 treatment sessions. I am now 2.5 years out from treatment and my PSA is undetectable.

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Your case is interesting. On the one hand you say "to get a PET scan which showed involvement just outside the gland in the seminal vesicle which didn't show up on MRI or CT scan." However, on the site health dot costhelper dot com it says "PET scans do not show images as detailed as those produced by a CT scan or MRI, but can show chemical activity and blood flow as other scans cannot." So was the involvement detected as a result of the chemical activity/ blood flow only? Please say what your PSA was at that time. I've read that there are 2 things that would require a PET scan: a PSA blood level of 20 or higher or a Gleason grade of 7 (3+4) or higher puts you at higher risk of metastatic prostate cancer. So was your PET scan because of a Gleason 7 and/or a PSA of 20 or higher or both?"
My PSA is only 3 but have one Gleason 7 (3+4) along with a Decipher Low Risk of 0.37. Thus I wonder if a PET might be done since my Gleason is a 7. Any thoughts?

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WOW, a Decipher low risk of 0.26 ? That's better than mine at 0.37. According to Decipher, Low Risk means you and I are perfect candidates for Active Surveillance (AS). I just had a consult with a medical oncologist for a second opinion at a major hospital in Wash, DC. He said I was at such a low risk that I should not even consider any treatment options for now and concentrate on closely monitoring my PSA which is at 3. The schedule for PSA tests would be a minimum every 6 mos and a maximum of every 3 mos. If the PSA were to get up to say 8 or higher, then he would take a closer look at things. Be sure to read this article on the internet using the following Search terms "Study finds prostate cancer treatment can wait for most men". Keep in mind that prostate cancer cells grow VERY slowly in about 80% of men so time is on our side. I hope you read this before you go under THE BEAM !

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With all the protons passing through opposing paths 180 degrees, You get more concentrated energy along the path. The role of the Bragg effect is negated when the two beams contribute on both sides. With automatic gating, smaller margins & adaptive planning the dose received by OAR is likely less than with the proton. We can't know the actual dose with proton as structures move and can move OAR into the beam depositing more energy in the bladder or rectum.

Although we can theorize that one method is better than another, the only randomized data we have shows reduced side effects with MRIdian. Until there is real evidence as opposed to marketing hype, I'd lean to MRI guided 5 treatment SBRT, than 45 CT guided proton with larger PTV margins and no protection during movement.

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