← Return to PSA 8.6, MRI PIRADS 5, Biopsy scheduled, so a bit worried

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@retireddoc

Good morning and Happy New Year!
I am a 70 yo recently retired Radiologist (Interventional specialty mainly-biopsies, treating cancer by ablation, compression fractures of spine by kyphoplasty etc) but also have read many CT/PET/MRI exams in my 40 year career. I thought I knew a lot about prostate cancer; turns out I didn't.
I routinely had a yearly physical exam which included PSA. My PSA bounced around from 3-5 for a number of years and I finally got a contrasted Prostate MRI on a high field magnet/3T in 2019. It was normal so it gave me a false sense of security. Also sent a blood sample to Mayo for fractionation and they said normal for age. In early 2021 my PSA jumped to 7.5 (yearly rate of rise of 20% or more is the red flag, not the absolute number) so I went to the urologist and had repeat MRI. Now there was a 1 cm enhancing nodule (not good) in my prostate. Biopsy revealed Gleason 7, 8 & 9 cores from the nodule with the rest of the gland negative. Bonescan & MRI (urologist didn't order PET because he didn't believe cancer was outside the prostate) negative for spread. I went into full court press mode and had informal discussions with multiple colleagues (RO, MO, urologists) as well as formal consultations at several medical centers. Elected to have robotic prostetectomy with a very experienced surgeon. Surgery went well. Gleason 9 with extra capsular extension. PSA went down to 0.016 post 6 weeks but then went up to 0.37 two months later. PSMA PET revealed solitary met at T8. Consultation time again. Read extensively. Elected to have SBRT (radiation) at Emory to kill the cancer at T8. Four months later PSA now 4.5. Very rapid doubling time indicating agressive cancer. Again, extensively read literature. Got a zoom consultation with prostate cancer expert at Johns Hopkins with 30 years experienced treating prostate cancer (medical oncologist and head of the prostate cancer research facility there) and liked what I heard from him and his NP. I wanted an Oncologist that just specialized in prostate, not a general medical oncologist. Immediately started on Lupron. Within 2 weeks started chemo with Taxotere at Hopkins and added an anti androgen receptor drug (Darolutamide). Eight weeks after the chemo cycles ended I had full pelvic radiation. My PSA went undetectable after my second chemo session and has remained so for a year. I am now off all medications and awaiting return of my testosterone and hope PSA stays undetectable. That's my journey. Everyone is different.
I will offer my opinion about a few issues as a patient and not a physician. Even as a physician I would never advise anyone on a certain course of treatment because 1) I am not their doctor, 2) that is not my field of specialty, 3) I don't know anyone's full history etc. I am leery of those that make definitive pronouncements about treatments on this and other forums. Having said that:

Become informed as others have suggested. It is your body. Seek second opinions. See at least one Urologist and one Radiation oncologist before making a decision on Radiation vs surgery. There is no right or wrong. Both are good choices depending on the person"s age, health, Gleason score, Imaging results etc.

If you don't feel comfortable with your specialists fire him/her and seek another opinion. If they don't spend adequate time with you and answer your questions find another doctor that will.

In general, seeking treatment at a major medical center/ Center of Excellence is a good idea. If you elect to have surgery, ask your urologist how many Robotic Prostatectomies he/she has done. It should be quite a few but I won't give my opinion to the exact number. I practiced at a major medical center and I can tell you from experience that when a new procedure came out I was much more proficient after the first hundred than I was the first 10. Just something to think about.

Treatments are changing rapidly regarding prostate cancer. Limited metastatic disease (1-3 lesions) is considered potentially curable by many oncologists whereas several years ago it was not.

Don't let this consume you. Live life no matter the result of the biopsy and future treatment. Easier said than done. At your age you need to seriously consider quality of life in your decisions. Ask your doctors how their treatments will impact that.

I wish you well. Numerous people who have gone through this freely gave of their time to me so I feel I should do the same. The above is just my experience and opinion. Not definitive. Good luck.

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Replies to "Good morning and Happy New Year! I am a 70 yo recently retired Radiologist (Interventional specialty..."

Hello 'retireddoc',
I have a touchy question that has bugged me for a goodly while. And I mean no disrespect nor to contradict or criticize your reply; in fact it was fantastic.
But I like many sought a doctor/urologist who had lots of experience as well as many RARP's of experience. All good.
But how do doctors of any specialty or field get those first 10 or 100 procedures if patients like me seek only those with more experience??
Is there a protocol for that??
Again, no offense meant and I hope none taken. Thank you!

Thanks so much for the detailed information, I am also 70 my PSA had started up a cpuple years ago 2.27 to 4.47 back to 3.73 then a couple months ago to 6.24 I finally got in to see a Urologist December 13, I had a Parametric MRI on a 3T on 12/26/23 it showed 1 lesion 12mm and my PIRADS was 4, my Urologist also ordered a 4K score blood test, on a scale of 1-95 (under 7.5 not aggressive) mine was 95 the most aggressive, I am waiting to get scheduled for a needle biopsy then a Gleason score. The MRI did not show anything in the pelvic bone ( although I have developed bad tailbone pain in the last 6 months, I attributed it to my long distance motorcycle rides) nothing in bladder or pelvic lymph nodes.
I have to be realistic that I have some kind of Prostate Cancer. My prostate was enlarged 44.1 CC and I have had BPH symptoms for at least 2-3 years I understand the best needle biopsy is guided by an MRI vs a rectal sonogram (TRUS?) again thanks for sharing your details, my Dad had PC and radical prostatectomy in 1984 at age 64, he thought the s surgery ( perineal) let out some cancer cells, he must have had a slow growing kind as he was treated with different drugs at Mayo Clinic and lived to be 90 when he died after the PC went to the bone
I have lots of cancer in my family so this was not a shock to me

Dear retireddoc, thankyou very much for post that is very interesting for me.
In my father's family (6 male brothers) everyone underwent prostate surgery (BPH) at a relatively young age (around 60 years old). Four of them died from various cancers but not prostate cancer; although it must be said that they all died between the ages of 69 and 73.
I started with classic BPH symptoms at 38 and had to have surgery (TURP) at 51. Since then I have always had an annual visit to the urologist and a PSA test every 6 months. I am now 66 years old. The PSA went from 1.6 (January 15) to 3.98 (January 24). No suspicious abnormalities were detected on rectal touch. My urologist, suspicious of this gradual and constant increase in PSA, orders me a multiparametric MRI in 2015, then again in 2021. Both results were negative, without suspicion and without alterations, PIRAD 2.
Despite this result, the urologist recommended performing a biopsy. Since it is a very invasive and sometimes very painful exam, I preferred not to do it and repeat the MRI the following year (2022) with identical results to the previous ones. Today my PSA is 3.98 and given its linear and constant increase I think I can already predict what it will be in one or 2 years...
I have consulted several doctors, radiologists and urologists and the opinions are divergent. There are those who think that in the presence of 3 P-RADS 2 MRI and without variations over the years, it is not justifiable to perform a biopsy just because the PSA increases; this increase would be justified by age. There are those (almost all urologists) who recommend performing a biopsy anyway.
If I understand correctly, it seems to me that your case demonstrates that the increase in PSA can indicate the presence of PC, even if the various MRI scans are negative.
Considering your personal experience, as a patient and radiologist, I will really appreciate your feedback

Thank you so much for taking the time to provide your input/experience. Going back through all the replies again. I had met with the surgeon in my health network a few weeks back and just met with the Radiology Oncologist yesterday (4/25/2024). Apparently it took so long because they sent the referral to the wrong provider?
The Radiology Oncologist was a lot more helpful than the surgeon that would be performing the RP. Just a lot more info about the different treatments. Spent a lot more time with me. His main message was that (as many here have said) both forms of treatment are effective and that it's really about what makes the most sense for me.
He said PSA 8.6, Gleason 7, Stage 2 are the numbers I need to focus on. And the fact that more than 50% of my biopsy samples showed cancer (3+3, 3+4).
Those are the things that dictate his course of action/treatment recommendations. He said that because I am kind of "in the middle" as far as age, radiation OR surgery are both good options.
I was leaning toward RP before I met with him but now I'm not so sure. His area of expertise EBRT and that is the treatment I would get if I opt for radiation treatment with my current provider.
He said incontinence/impotence likelihood for surgery is also higher than radiation (50% to 33% respectively)?
He said he, in my position, would not have a problem having the surgeon in my network perform the surgery if I chose that.
He said there can be benefits to going to a Center of Excellence for treatment but in many/most cases, the added travel, cost, and trouble just don't justify it unless you live somewhere where treatment quality/cost, or the experience level of your docs/surgeons (or lack thereof) warrants it.
He said the peace of mind of getting the best care available to you regardless of cost may be the biggest benefit and not trivial if it brings you peace and gives you confidence to move forward.
So more info to digest from yesterday to help with my decision.
Hoping others will chime in based on this latest info.

Thanks all.