Anyone against multiple biopsy’s for low grade prostate cancer?

Posted by batsam10 @batsam10, Sep 9, 2023

Hello all, I’m a 60 year old male with low grade prostrate cancer. My first biopsy was September of 2022. 18 cores were pulled with 3 coming back cancerous, My Gleason score was 3 + 3. My PSA has increased every year for the last 3 years but is low at 5.7. I am on active surveillance and just had my follow up this week. My PA suggested doing another biopsy. My older brother has a more serious case of prostrate cancer and said don’t let them continue to do biopsy’s with my current status. He claims the multiple biopsy’s he has done has made him incontinent and impotent. He believes doing another biopsy after having one 1-year ago is unnecessary for me. Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

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@tjmayo

Batsam10, be very careful about postponing biopsies with a rising PSA. I've not heard of biopsies causing the problems your brother had. Sorry to heard about that.
In my case, I was tuned in to PC because my Dad had it. I'm 71 now, but when 70 my PSA had steadily risen over the past 5 years to over 5. I had the standard 12 core biopsi last year - revealed no cancer at all. When my PSA kept rising to 6, I was concerned - so I had a fusion biopsy - which means they did an MRI and combined that image with the ultrasound when they did the biopsy. I had 3 cores of Gleason 8 and 1 core of Gleason 7 (4+3). After considering my options, I chose Proton Radiation Therapy from UHFPTI in Jacksonville. Just prior to treatment, they did a PETSCAN and everybody was surprised and I was shocked to see that I had 7 lymph nodes with cancer. So my tidy little contained cancer was now Metastasized. And at treatment start, my PSA had risen to 11. Changed my treatment dramatically, but luckily I'm 67% through my treatments and Docs expect a great result.
The point I'm trying to make is that everybody considers Prostate Cancer to be slow growing and that we're all going to get it if we live long enough, and it's not that big of a deal. But the truth is it can be VERY aggressive and metastasize before you know it. I'm told the 12 core standard biopsy is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Having an MRI and fusion biopsy is better.
I chosen Proton Radiation Therapy because it's radiation stops at the tumor, whereas traditional Photon radiation radiates you all the way through the tumor and out of the body. Means less issues with side effects. Doesn't cost you anything to get a second opinion. ps. My Urologist never even mentioned Proton Therapy. You have to do your own research.
All my best to you - catch it early.
Tom

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Can’t thank you enough for sharing your story and suggestions. I’m trying hard not to dismiss the fact that the general opinion is PS is slow growing and you most likely won’t die from it. Having a father and older brother who had/have PS, I do want to stay on top of it. Just seemed soon to do one a year after my initial one. Wishing you the best of luck to you with your treatments and outcome.

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@wellness100

Can you do MRI targetted biopsy?
Dont mind me. I am just another layman trying to make some sense of the whole thing.

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I am new to this world and honestly don’t know. I am under the impression that the biopsy gives better results than the MRI’s.

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@spino

One thing you mention in passing is that your older brother has PC. This is a risk factor for you as some PC is familial. I mention this because it could be a factor in how long you are willing to continue active surveillance. (And yes, multiple mri's and repeated guided biopsies, whether now or after waiting longer, are definitely part of the protocol for active surveillance as opposed to the more passive "watchful waiting" once advocated.)

Since you had 18 cores taken, that was likely 12 systematic plus 6 guided by ultrasound/mri. If you take the same route, your next round would probably also be guided by mri. That mri will tell you if things have progressed. You might be, however, a good candidate for ablation (localized killing) since your cancer appears to be somewhat predictable. I was impressed by, but had too far progressed cancer for, a clinical trial of an ablation approach using magnetic nanoparticles. In addition to radiation, ablation can be done using HIFU--high frequency ultrasound, cryo--freezing, and a few other techniques.

The benefit of ablation is not requiring the risks of surgery, but the downsides usually relate to two aspects--the scarring of the tissue makes reading what's going on more difficult going forward (and it never gets all the cancer) and there is always some damage to healthy cells, either nearby or because the ablation is not tightly enough targeted.

There is of course much work going on to refine the techniques for ablation, as well as a lot of expensive equipment built and marketed for this purpose, so there's a lot of press about ablation techniques.
Let's just say that if any one technique was proven truly superior, some people would make a lot of money and a lot of people would get a better treatment option. I think as someone who already lost my prostate, I can sit back and say that things are not yet that clear.

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True, my Dad had PC and bladder cancer but that is not what he died from. I don’t know how much research my older brother has done but this forum has helped me a lot and I appreciate everyone who has responded. 2nd opinion scheduled for next week.

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If he is incontinent and impotent, treatment is available; he should see a sexual medicine clinician for the latter. If it's not e.g. stress related, if actual damage was done during a biopsy, perhaps there are scans that will show this?

The problem with not doing MRI Ultrasound fusion guided biopsies is that they are random; really want samples of the least normal cells (don't much care about the normal cells) so you can get treatment if and when needed, and avoid an early, painful death. IF it's worse than 3+3; there was a study with 20,000 patients and none died from 3+3. However you can't count on it not progressing.

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I think you are going to be in good shape - because you are researching and here on this group and getting a second opinion.
BTW, I'm not "biopsy happy" either - those needles going into our prostates can't be that good for us. I'm just so aware that had I pushed for and gotten my fusion biopsy sooner, I could have avoided the metastasis to my lymph nodes.
Very good luck to you - and "welcome to the club we never wanted to join". But you have good options.
Take care.

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@batsam10

I am new to this world and honestly don’t know. I am under the impression that the biopsy gives better results than the MRI’s.

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MRI targetter biopsy means you first do the MRI. Hopefully you locate the tumor or the suspected tumor, then biopsy those tissues. It saves a lot of pain and money. There had been reports that people went through multiple biopsies. Either nothing or low-grade cancer. But using this method, they got the cancer and had it treated effectively.
You might want to get a second opinion or go to one of the larger clinics that offer the treatment.
Dont mind me. I am just another layman trying to make some sense of the whole thing.

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I was diagnosed with Gleason 3+3 in 2017, and skipped biopsies and just did the MRI. My latest MRI showed two lesions and I did a targeted biopsy using the MRI image and found some intermediate Gleason 7 cancer and will undergo HIFU treatment this week that uses sound to destroy cancer tissue. Doctor will destroy 1 cm on all sides to catch cancer roots. Doctor states the sound energy will not destroy nerve bundle as much as other options. This is done through the rectum and can only be used on the lower part of the prostate closer to the rectum.

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@tjmayo

I think you are going to be in good shape - because you are researching and here on this group and getting a second opinion.
BTW, I'm not "biopsy happy" either - those needles going into our prostates can't be that good for us. I'm just so aware that had I pushed for and gotten my fusion biopsy sooner, I could have avoided the metastasis to my lymph nodes.
Very good luck to you - and "welcome to the club we never wanted to join". But you have good options.
Take care.

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Much appreciated. Wishing you the best.

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@spino

One thing you mention in passing is that your older brother has PC. This is a risk factor for you as some PC is familial. I mention this because it could be a factor in how long you are willing to continue active surveillance. (And yes, multiple mri's and repeated guided biopsies, whether now or after waiting longer, are definitely part of the protocol for active surveillance as opposed to the more passive "watchful waiting" once advocated.)

Since you had 18 cores taken, that was likely 12 systematic plus 6 guided by ultrasound/mri. If you take the same route, your next round would probably also be guided by mri. That mri will tell you if things have progressed. You might be, however, a good candidate for ablation (localized killing) since your cancer appears to be somewhat predictable. I was impressed by, but had too far progressed cancer for, a clinical trial of an ablation approach using magnetic nanoparticles. In addition to radiation, ablation can be done using HIFU--high frequency ultrasound, cryo--freezing, and a few other techniques.

The benefit of ablation is not requiring the risks of surgery, but the downsides usually relate to two aspects--the scarring of the tissue makes reading what's going on more difficult going forward (and it never gets all the cancer) and there is always some damage to healthy cells, either nearby or because the ablation is not tightly enough targeted.

There is of course much work going on to refine the techniques for ablation, as well as a lot of expensive equipment built and marketed for this purpose, so there's a lot of press about ablation techniques.
Let's just say that if any one technique was proven truly superior, some people would make a lot of money and a lot of people would get a better treatment option. I think as someone who already lost my prostate, I can sit back and say that things are not yet that clear.

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As a fellow pc sufferer I worry about multiple needle biopsies. I didn’t realize the trus biopsy used the same needle for all 15 of my samples. It all worked out that I didn’t get septis but a friend died following his needle biopsy. Others have raised the question of seeding healthy areas of the prostrate with cancer cells spread by the needle from diseased area. Hope medicine comes up with a safer way to collect tissue.

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Excellent point I hadn’t though of.

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