Dry needling for post-ACDF hand/arm pain and numbness

Hello @birdman518. I think western medicine is often not well understood in our country but many hospitals have endorsed more and more of the practices as alternative treatment options. Here is an article from the Mayo Clinic Health System that may help you feel more comfortable with the idea of the treatment: https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speaking-of-health/on-pins-and-needles-just-what-is-dry-needling

As well, I'd like to invite @jenniferhunter to come in and share what she may know with regard to another treatment that could be worth exploring, that is myofascial release therapy. Have you heard of it?

Jennifer has written to me about myofascial release therapy. I will look at the article you provided, but I may give DN a try.

@birdman518 Hi Mitch.
Muscles contract because of electrical impulses from the nerves, and the speed of the impulses determines if the muscle twitches and releases or stays in a sustained contraction. This was an experiment my biology class did to demonstrate that by increasing the speed of impulses, you can get it fast enough to keep a sustained contraction.

My PT also does dry needing and was suggesting it for me, however, I don't like needles and don't really want to try this. She has explained how it works. When you have a muscle that is spasming, it is holding an electric charge that is keeping the muscle contracted. When you stick a needle into it, as a conductor of electricity, it can dissipate the electrical charge and release the spasm. Sometimes, an electrical charge is applied to the needle after it is inserted into a muscle, but not every state allows this. The needles are very thin.

Another way to do something similar is a Dolphin Neurostimulator which you can find at this website. https://www.dolphinmps.com/
I have done this, and it sends an electric current between 2 handheld devices. That can block pain signals because it interrupts the neurotransmitters that are relaying the electric nerve impulses between nerve cells. Neurotransmitters are chemicals released by a nerve cell that quickly dissipate across the small gap between cells (called a synapse) and enter the next next cell to perpetuate the electrical impulse charge. The Dolphin has different settings to vary the current. It has a sound it makes that lowers in pitch as the muscle is releasing and is held there maybe up to minute. It does feel like needles sticking into the muscle often times when it's bad. I have had pain relief for a week at a time with the Dolphin and this was prior to my spine surgery and the spasms I was getting. My PT was using this at the nerve roots of my cervical spine.

The effects of this may be temporary if a problem exists that keeps sending electric impulses, but it did take my pain away for a week. Nerves may be firing because of compression or damage. I would be interested to know if these therapies help your pain symptoms. You can do all of this and myofascial release too.

What I understand about trigger points is that they are hardened drier areas in the muscles that form in the stressed areas. The tissue is holding a lot of waste products and not getting much circulation to clear it away. Sometimes working on trigger points is simply mashing them with hard massage, and if you get the trigger points out, the muscle gets longer and more relaxed. Trigger points can reform. Myofascial release helps too because it brings back circulation as you work through fine layers of fascia. If your nerve pain is related to functional alignment that is stretching or compressing a nerve, un-kinking the muscles will make them longer and can release the tension which could allow the nerve to just settle down without being poked or yanked by their neighbors. It certainly takes patience and time to work through this. I think the C5 palsey that you described before is related to stretching of the nerves in that location because they are shorter than other spinal nerve roots. All the muscles that connect your spine with your head, neck, shoulders and scapula can shorten increasing tension, and pull on the spine and insult the nerves that are still trying to heal. I still get neck spasms 5 years after spine surgery, but not nearly as bad as before spine surgery. What I do also can trigger spasms, and slouching with a forward head position using a computer aggravates this. Just picture a turtle sticking its neck out to see a computer screen, and you get the picture. The more I do other activities that strengthen the core (like barn chores and riding my horse), the better my back and neck feels as long as I maintain correct mechanics and posture, and don't overexert myself and start using neck muscles to help lift things.

Sometimes there are no clear cut answers, and that's OK. Just pay attention to what helps in your therapy and discuss that with your PT. Ask lots of questions about why it helps. Put your mind toward understanding it and believe that you can do it.

Do you think you might want to try the Dolphin?

@birdman518 Hi Mitch.
Muscles contract because of electrical impulses from the nerves, and the speed of the impulses determines if the muscle twitches and releases or stays in a sustained contraction. This was an experiment my biology class did to demonstrate that by increasing the speed of impulses, you can get it fast enough to keep a sustained contraction.

My PT also does dry needing and was suggesting it for me, however, I don't like needles and don't really want to try this. She has explained how it works. When you have a muscle that is spasming, it is holding an electric charge that is keeping the muscle contracted. When you stick a needle into it, as a conductor of electricity, it can dissipate the electrical charge and release the spasm. Sometimes, an electrical charge is applied to the needle after it is inserted into a muscle, but not every state allows this. The needles are very thin.

Another way to do something similar is a Dolphin Neurostimulator which you can find at this website. https://www.dolphinmps.com/
I have done this, and it sends an electric current between 2 handheld devices. That can block pain signals because it interrupts the neurotransmitters that are relaying the electric nerve impulses between nerve cells. Neurotransmitters are chemicals released by a nerve cell that quickly dissipate across the small gap between cells (called a synapse) and enter the next next cell to perpetuate the electrical impulse charge. The Dolphin has different settings to vary the current. It has a sound it makes that lowers in pitch as the muscle is releasing and is held there maybe up to minute. It does feel like needles sticking into the muscle often times when it's bad. I have had pain relief for a week at a time with the Dolphin and this was prior to my spine surgery and the spasms I was getting. My PT was using this at the nerve roots of my cervical spine.

The effects of this may be temporary if a problem exists that keeps sending electric impulses, but it did take my pain away for a week. Nerves may be firing because of compression or damage. I would be interested to know if these therapies help your pain symptoms. You can do all of this and myofascial release too.

What I understand about trigger points is that they are hardened drier areas in the muscles that form in the stressed areas. The tissue is holding a lot of waste products and not getting much circulation to clear it away. Sometimes working on trigger points is simply mashing them with hard massage, and if you get the trigger points out, the muscle gets longer and more relaxed. Trigger points can reform. Myofascial release helps too because it brings back circulation as you work through fine layers of fascia. If your nerve pain is related to functional alignment that is stretching or compressing a nerve, un-kinking the muscles will make them longer and can release the tension which could allow the nerve to just settle down without being poked or yanked by their neighbors. It certainly takes patience and time to work through this. I think the C5 palsey that you described before is related to stretching of the nerves in that location because they are shorter than other spinal nerve roots. All the muscles that connect your spine with your head, neck, shoulders and scapula can shorten increasing tension, and pull on the spine and insult the nerves that are still trying to heal. I still get neck spasms 5 years after spine surgery, but not nearly as bad as before spine surgery. What I do also can trigger spasms, and slouching with a forward head position using a computer aggravates this. Just picture a turtle sticking its neck out to see a computer screen, and you get the picture. The more I do other activities that strengthen the core (like barn chores and riding my horse), the better my back and neck feels as long as I maintain correct mechanics and posture, and don't overexert myself and start using neck muscles to help lift things.

Sometimes there are no clear cut answers, and that's OK. Just pay attention to what helps in your therapy and discuss that with your PT. Ask lots of questions about why it helps. Put your mind toward understanding it and believe that you can do it.

Do you think you might want to try the Dolphin?

@birdman518 Hi Mitch.
Muscles contract because of electrical impulses from the nerves, and the speed of the impulses determines if the muscle twitches and releases or stays in a sustained contraction. This was an experiment my biology class did to demonstrate that by increasing the speed of impulses, you can get it fast enough to keep a sustained contraction.

My PT also does dry needing and was suggesting it for me, however, I don't like needles and don't really want to try this. She has explained how it works. When you have a muscle that is spasming, it is holding an electric charge that is keeping the muscle contracted. When you stick a needle into it, as a conductor of electricity, it can dissipate the electrical charge and release the spasm. Sometimes, an electrical charge is applied to the needle after it is inserted into a muscle, but not every state allows this. The needles are very thin.

Another way to do something similar is a Dolphin Neurostimulator which you can find at this website. https://www.dolphinmps.com/
I have done this, and it sends an electric current between 2 handheld devices. That can block pain signals because it interrupts the neurotransmitters that are relaying the electric nerve impulses between nerve cells. Neurotransmitters are chemicals released by a nerve cell that quickly dissipate across the small gap between cells (called a synapse) and enter the next next cell to perpetuate the electrical impulse charge. The Dolphin has different settings to vary the current. It has a sound it makes that lowers in pitch as the muscle is releasing and is held there maybe up to minute. It does feel like needles sticking into the muscle often times when it's bad. I have had pain relief for a week at a time with the Dolphin and this was prior to my spine surgery and the spasms I was getting. My PT was using this at the nerve roots of my cervical spine.

The effects of this may be temporary if a problem exists that keeps sending electric impulses, but it did take my pain away for a week. Nerves may be firing because of compression or damage. I would be interested to know if these therapies help your pain symptoms. You can do all of this and myofascial release too.

What I understand about trigger points is that they are hardened drier areas in the muscles that form in the stressed areas. The tissue is holding a lot of waste products and not getting much circulation to clear it away. Sometimes working on trigger points is simply mashing them with hard massage, and if you get the trigger points out, the muscle gets longer and more relaxed. Trigger points can reform. Myofascial release helps too because it brings back circulation as you work through fine layers of fascia. If your nerve pain is related to functional alignment that is stretching or compressing a nerve, un-kinking the muscles will make them longer and can release the tension which could allow the nerve to just settle down without being poked or yanked by their neighbors. It certainly takes patience and time to work through this. I think the C5 palsey that you described before is related to stretching of the nerves in that location because they are shorter than other spinal nerve roots. All the muscles that connect your spine with your head, neck, shoulders and scapula can shorten increasing tension, and pull on the spine and insult the nerves that are still trying to heal. I still get neck spasms 5 years after spine surgery, but not nearly as bad as before spine surgery. What I do also can trigger spasms, and slouching with a forward head position using a computer aggravates this. Just picture a turtle sticking its neck out to see a computer screen, and you get the picture. The more I do other activities that strengthen the core (like barn chores and riding my horse), the better my back and neck feels as long as I maintain correct mechanics and posture, and don't overexert myself and start using neck muscles to help lift things.

Sometimes there are no clear cut answers, and that's OK. Just pay attention to what helps in your therapy and discuss that with your PT. Ask lots of questions about why it helps. Put your mind toward understanding it and believe that you can do it.

Do you think you might want to try the Dolphin?

What I do not get about all of this is how muscle knots and/or tension have anything to do with my nerve pain that seems to be related to (what was thought to be) pressure from a cervical disc or bone spur. I think that *any* treatment should be able to posit what is wrong (based on some evidence) and also show how the treatment corrects it. I have not really been able to put this together with my nerve pain (either before or after my ACDF surgery) for either MF release or DN. I am trying to stay open, and I realize that chronic pain makes people sometimes try *anything*.
I also prefer not to do treatments with a very short window of relief..
I am going back to PT on Monday and will continue the conversation.