Anyone tried Dry Needling or Acupuncture for Pain or Neuropathy?

Posted by judypall @judypall, Mar 22, 2019

Has anyone had any luck with either dry needling or acupuncture? I have tried each of them one time. But made my feet tingle more. The PT who was administering the dry needling said that it goes through a cycle of pain to get better. I wasn’t too sure on that. Anyone?

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@debkl

Rachel Zoffness has a lot of info on the brain's role in pain. There are a bunch of You Tube interviews, podcasts, and articles on the web. She's very kind and really explains things well.

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Thank you. I will check it out.

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@mikaylar

Thank you. I will check it out.

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You're welcome.

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@cookiepic

I have been under ENT care since vertigo. I went back to my orthopedic doctor when my neck started hurting really bad. I to get the head discomfort going up the back of my head to the top. I made an appt with neurologist in 2 weeks. Can I ask what doctors you went to for your diagnosis?

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I went to an ENT, everything looks normal but they did no scans. I asked my primary care physician to order an MRI to decide what to do next. She agreed, then referred me to a pain management doctor.

That was 3 weeks ago, still waiting to hear back from them to schedule an appointment. The pain management doctor must review my medical record before scheduling so don’t know how long that will take.

I will continue to do my PT exercises but now worried the stretching might be causing more inflammation. What’s a girl to do?

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@jenniferhunter

Cookiepic, my physical therapist has talked to me about dry needling. The way it works is it releases the electrical charge that is holding the muscles in a spasm knot. Since metal conducts electricity, it dissipates the charge when you stick a needle into the muscle. I don't like needles, so I didn't try it. The other thing that helps which I have done is a Dolphin Neurostimulator which is 2 handheld devices that send an electric current between them. I also am a spine surgery patient, and prior to my cervical fusion, my therapist was using the Dolphin to block pain signals at the nerve roots of my spine. That helped for about a week to reduce pain. Those give some temporary relief, but do not address the structural problem of the spine.

I had spinal cord compression because of a collapsed C5/C6 disc and bone spurs that were pressing into my spinal cord. I had a single level fusion at Mayo without hardware, and I stayed in a neck brace until the fusion process had begun. I had great results from my surgery and I'm doing well now at 5 years post op. The spine can start to fuse itself if the discs collapse completely which may become inoperable if that happens. A spine specialist would have to answer that question. Bone remodels because of pressure which is why bone spurs form and they can start to fuse the adjacent vertebrae and compress the spaces between vertebrae where the nerve roots exit.

Sometimes physical therapy is tried as a prerequisite to surgery. Are you considering a surgical procedure for your spinal disc issues? If you have questions, I can answer about my experience with spine surgery.

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Your therapist did not really pay attention during physics classes, I guess? yes, metal conducts electricity, but electricity does not want to flow if there is no end point that it can flow through. In case of a needle, there is not point the electricity can go to.
There may be some limited success with acupuncture by stimulating some nerves, but it sure is not a scientific way to do this. (I have a doctorate in biomedical sciences, and that is the kind of stuff, we deal with)

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@jetsetter

I have read about cervicogenic headaches. How are you being treated? I have never had nausea or auras with my headaches so don’t think they are migraines, plus I just started having them with neck pain.

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Once I it was strongly suggested I had CH and not migraine, I started with some exercises the Sports Med doc demonstrated, as I could not afford PT (even with insurance). I had also been reading up on headaches on PainScience.com and corresponded briefly with the owner, as well as with a Doctor of PT on another website. The Sports Med doc had given me an Rx for tizanidine and I used about 10 of those (out of 30). I did all the exercises for mid back, shoulders, and pectoralis muscles on my own.

Just an FYI, migraines very often don't have any kind of aura, visual, olfactory, abdominal, or anything, but neck pain is common with migraine. It's hard to distinguish sometimes. Cervicogenic headache often does NOT have neck pain because the pain is referred, felt in the head when the source is in the neck.

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@jetsetter

How could neck exercises and stretching make neck pain worse? You got my attention.

Of course we all have degenerative changes in our spines. My rheumatologist told me my MRI looked pretty normal for a person my age (68).

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Like many with chronic pain, my spine has arthritis, bone spurs, degenerating disks and stenosis, but I have managed to avoid surgery and stay active by refusing to sit still. A long time PT always says "motion Is lotion" and I believe him.

When my neck and shoulders are painful, I usually find gentle stretching helps release the muscles that are pulling at or otherwise irritating the nerves. I use heat before ( heating pad or rice pack) and cold pack after stretching. If I don't, the muscles tighten or spasm even more, causing more "pain buddies" to form.

What stretches do you use for your neck?
Sue

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@cookiepic

It was recommended to try by my pt. I have DDD in my neck and that's where they want to do. Had anybody tried it and did it help. My C5,6 and 7 have no cushion left.

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I agree we must keep moving! I do overhead pulldowns with an exercise band over the door frame, then put it about wast high and pull straight back with the band. Then with an easier band I place above the door handle I do “Y-T-I”s - arms up and out in a “Y” shape, up to center and back to the sides, arms out to the side shoulder height and back, then pull down and straight back for the “I”. I do 3 sets of 10 of each all b with lower back and core-strengthening exercises on the floor.

Then the PT has me doing a 1-minute stretch ear towards Right shoulder only til you feel a stretch (hard for me to go very far) and then turn head to side and look at armpit for 1 minute.

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@sueinmn

Like many with chronic pain, my spine has arthritis, bone spurs, degenerating disks and stenosis, but I have managed to avoid surgery and stay active by refusing to sit still. A long time PT always says "motion Is lotion" and I believe him.

When my neck and shoulders are painful, I usually find gentle stretching helps release the muscles that are pulling at or otherwise irritating the nerves. I use heat before ( heating pad or rice pack) and cold pack after stretching. If I don't, the muscles tighten or spasm even more, causing more "pain buddies" to form.

What stretches do you use for your neck?
Sue

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I don’t use cold packs after stretching, I will try that. Good suggestion. I have all those degenerative changes, too. We have to live with this neck for hopefully many years, so better to do simple things than to get aggressive with invasive procedures.

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@jetsetter

I agree we must keep moving! I do overhead pulldowns with an exercise band over the door frame, then put it about wast high and pull straight back with the band. Then with an easier band I place above the door handle I do “Y-T-I”s - arms up and out in a “Y” shape, up to center and back to the sides, arms out to the side shoulder height and back, then pull down and straight back for the “I”. I do 3 sets of 10 of each all b with lower back and core-strengthening exercises on the floor.

Then the PT has me doing a 1-minute stretch ear towards Right shoulder only til you feel a stretch (hard for me to go very far) and then turn head to side and look at armpit for 1 minute.

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Sounds like you have found what works for you! My last PT and I customized my routine, but after a year and a half we need another visit to modify some things as the arthritis progresses.
Keep on moving
Sue

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@lindes

Your therapist did not really pay attention during physics classes, I guess? yes, metal conducts electricity, but electricity does not want to flow if there is no end point that it can flow through. In case of a needle, there is not point the electricity can go to.
There may be some limited success with acupuncture by stimulating some nerves, but it sure is not a scientific way to do this. (I have a doctorate in biomedical sciences, and that is the kind of stuff, we deal with)

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@lindes Thank you for your comment. I wanted to share some information with you about dry needling and myofascial release. Living fascia weaves through all the muscle fibers and organs in the body and is a conductor of electricity. When a therapist does dry needling, and places a needle into a trigger point in a muscle, it causes a twitch response which is a depolarization and release of the held electric charge that then causes the muscle to contract with a twitch. Here is some literature that describes this event.

The source is the Journal of the American Board of Family Medicine:
https://www.jabfm.org/content/jabfp/23/5/640.full.pdf
Excerpts:
"Myofascial pain is a common form of pain that arises from muscles or related fascia and is usually associated with myofascial trigger points (MTrP). An MTrP is a highly localized, hyperirritable spot in a palpable, taut band of skeletal muscle fibers.1 When an MTrP is stimulated, 2 important clinical phenomena can be elicited: referred pain and a local twitch response. "

"Dry needling an MTrP is most effective when local twitch responses are elicited, 14 probably because of rapid depolarization of the involved muscle fibers, which manifests as local twitches.19 After the muscle has finished twitching, the spontaneous electrical activity subsides and the pain and dysfunction decrease dramatically. "

Here are a few links that may also be of interest:
https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/speaking-of-health/on-pins-and-needles-just-what-is-dry-needling
This video illustrates living fascia and how it moves and remodels as it changes between solid and liquid forms.


This is our discussion on Myofascial release and there are numerous links in the first few pages about MFR therapy. I have a lot of experience with MFR therapy and it has helped me a lot. My therapist taught me how to do MFR so I can self treat at home between clinic sessions.
https://connect.mayoclinic.org/discussion/myofascial-release-therapy-mfr-for-treating-compression-and-pain/
Isn't the video of living fascia interesting?

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