Lung metastasis: Curiosities from VATS to BATS
“Metastasis to the lung is present in more than 40% of men with metastatic prostate cancer (3); however, lung metastases without any bone or lymph node involvement and low Gleason score are extremely rare and only a handful of cases are reported in the literature (4).”
Or, I have seen it reported as < 1%. Great. This is us. So, in this boat and in this mind, I question everything prior to sliding into the triple therapy being offered. It’s not just a matter of which particular lutamide or androgen depressor, but what is the relationship between the PSA and testosterone levels over 17 yrs and the tumor growth?
A recent study from Duke suggests Testosterone has a dual impact of promoting tumor growth in early stage and suppressing tumors growth in late stage has peaked out interest - a certain puzzle and twist after decades of ADT! This idea supports the BATS approach of cycling testosterone in late stage castration resistant disease.
Our HX: 1/2008 54yrs, PSA 5.6, Testosterone 492, RARP 3/2008, Gleason 4+3=7, extra capsular extension, PNI present. Nadir 0.01 for ~8 yrs. Slow PSA creep to 0.091 in 1/2020. Covid cytokine 8/2022.
Fast forward 11/2024 PSA 0.43 - led to Imaging. MRI clear.
1/2025 PSMA PET =clear lymph, bone, prostate bed & (3) ~1.1cm lung nodules. 2/2025 PSA 0.36, Testosterone 800.3.
4/1/2025 PSA 0.33, Testosterone 735, free T 13.3 (‘abnormal’)
4/4/2025 needle biopsy lung confirms NKX3.1 pos = prostate mets
Several curiosities - relatively low PSA for lung metastasis w/ 3 nodules + micronodules on PET and CT scan of thorax. Was naturally rising T since RARP somehow protective for 17 yrs? Or did T rise since BCR or Mets? The relationship between Mets, PSA, and T is what fascinates. Why not test lung biopsy sample further for androgen receptivity prior to ADT, because what if lowering the T in this later stage promotes PCa growth? And then there is VATS (video assisted thoracic surgery) to remove the ca, but only an option for a select few. Any thoughts? Has my amateur investigative mind gone off the rails? What prostate oncological urologist will engage with a spousal advocate with these questions? Is it triple therapy or out the door?
Duke study referenced here and it’s very in-depth: https://medschool.duke.edu/news/study-solves-testosterones-paradoxical-effects-prostate-cancer
Interested in more discussions like this? Go to the Prostate Cancer Support Group.
@dpfbanks, Kudos to you for your in depth, exhaustive research. But at the rate you’re going, you may wind up with a nervous breakdown.
I, too, LIVED on the internet; studies, comparisons, this hospital, that university, this expert, that one, this curiosity, that conflicting set of data, etc., etc…..Finally, I said ENOUGH!!!
I heeded the advice of my friend’s sweatshirt which read:
PLEASE DON’T CONFUSE YOUR GOOGLE SEARCH WITH MY PROFESSIONAL DEGREE.
It may sound haughty, pretentious and more than a bit condescending, but it’s true. If you have excellent doctors - or even just plain old good ones - they’ve been taught what they know BASED on your “research”. Are there new studies every day? - sure! Are there studies even they are not aware of because they are too busy? - you betcha!
But it’s insanity to think that there are never outliers or curiosities in these studies; they occur in all aspects of our life and this is no different.
When I finally gave up trying to be the smartest guy in the room and just let the doctors do their thing - and IT IS their thing - my stress levels dropped precipitously.
So far - and it can always change - I am totally confident that my treatment decisions, based on current norms and practices (gold standard if you must) have been good ones. I wish the same for you and your husband.
Phil
Thank you @heavyphil and I hear exactly what you are saying. Investigating is in my DNA and how I cope. I have not even posted yet about SRBT and the hope that is in that camp! Watching the recent PCRI update is confirmation that there is always something new to try if you fit the box and can afford it.
Once we decide on which pieces will be in our plan, I will ‘let those trained professionals do their thing’ and get out of the way. It’s this window of oliogomestastases that may not last long, so it feels a bit urgent to learn about the options before going down any gold slides.
Yet, I appreciate your warning as to conserving energy as the ‘exhaustive research mode’ can be just that - exhausting. I realize I have jumped on the scene here in a bold way - and I have done so because of all of the smart minds and experienced bodies that are here. Thank you for your time to respond. 🙏🏼
dpfbank, what a marvelous mind you have and how fortunate for your loved one.
The oncologists we saw all welcomed and considered this advocates queries. And they were quite patient and honest when they were unaware of an option. I like the idea of the lung needle biopsy because the genetic of the cancer change in metastasis. It would be significant to know if this cancer is likely to become ADT resistant. You might also look at clinical trials because things are changing for cancer patients. The triple therapy is heavy. While it may be your best option. Don't find out later. Rest later.
As rare as his cancer is you won't likely have a physician who has even seen it before.
Bless you both with luck. Keep us posted on what you find.
I really enjoyed reading your post and also the link that you provided. I think that you are doing amazing job investigating and trying to understand your husband's rare case.
You will be great advocate for him knowing so much about his case, especially because he has such rare presentation. I also find great comfort reading and doing my own research because that way I spend time doing something constructive and possibly helpful. I wish I did this much research when my husband was told that gleason 3+3 "means nothing", we definitely would not be in this position now.
I learned long time ago that doctors are usually operating in their own space of comfort and often rely on outdated knowledge and information and push for procedures that they routinely do, not necessarily that are the best or the newest. Heck, I met doctors that "never heard " of certain conditions *eye-roll and I had to bring them printed articles.
I wish you and your husband all the best and complete and forever healing < 3