My homeopath wants me to begin NAD IV. Worth the $?

Posted by kgatlast @kgatlast, Aug 27 11:56am

The treatments are $335 each … for long Covid. Anyone had success with this?

Interested in more discussions like this? Go to the Post-COVID Recovery & COVID-19 Support Group.

If the objective of the NAD drip is to boost the pathway that ultimately supports mitochondrial ATP production (ATP being the primary source of energy across a very wide range of metabolic functions), I wonder whether your naturopath (a classical homeopath would not typically prescribe a nutraceutical drip) might consider something easier to pursue over a long period that could potentially be as effective in boosting your ATP production, i.e., thiamine repletion/supplementation therapy. Thiamine therapy can usually be done with oral supplements, though in hospital settings, thiamine/B1 drips are available and in use for multiple conditions.

There are multiple nutrients that are indispensable to ATP production, and NAD is surely one of them, but NAD is a derivative of more basic nutrients that are available from foods and OTC supplements, and NAD is farther downstream than, e.g., thiamine, in the ATP production pathway.

Like thiamine, magnesium is indispensable to normal ATP metabolism, and because the nutrients essential in metabolic pathways always work together, when one pursues thiamine supplementation, itś important also to increase oneś magnesium intake (with magnesium taurate being the most commonly advised version for this purpose).

Iḿ impressed that your naturopath sees that COVID damages our metabolism at quite basic levels, calling for treatments that address something as deep as mitochondrial function (which encompasses ATP synthesis), but after trying lots of downstream ¨energy-boosting¨ supplements (including choline), my non-response to these told me that I needed to go to a deeper deficiency or defect in order to get my energy up. That thiamine is essential not only in ATP production, but also in acetylcholine production, clued me in to the likelihood that any defect in my cellular thiamine levels, or in the way my thiamine was being metabolized, could be causing problems not limited to disrupted ATP production.

The work of orthomolecular therapy physician and researcher Derrick Lonsdale confirmed my suspicions, and then set forth, for me, the massive scale and diversity of dysfunction that thiamine deficiency/defect in the human body can cause.

In any case, if your naturopath is familiar with all this, and you decide to inquire about it with your naturopath, please consider showing your naturopath at least some sample chapters of Lonsdaleś crowning work titled Thiamine Deficiency Disease, Dysautonomia, and High-Calorie Malnutrition (written with Dr. Chandler Marrs). This work focuses on subacute thiamine deficiency and advocates thiamine supplementation in patients exhibiting the symptoms of B1 deficiency regardless of their thiamine lab values. Before his death, Dr. Lonsdale published an important article in which he posited that the COVID virus was involved in harming some component of the pathways of thiamine storage and deployment, and while no research on this existed at the time of this hypothesis, he cited as precedent the fact that many viruses other than COVID are well known to produce post-viral syndromes that involve energy deficits (e.g., Epstein-Barr chronic fatigue and myalgia).

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@hrojzen0922

If the objective of the NAD drip is to boost the pathway that ultimately supports mitochondrial ATP production (ATP being the primary source of energy across a very wide range of metabolic functions), I wonder whether your naturopath (a classical homeopath would not typically prescribe a nutraceutical drip) might consider something easier to pursue over a long period that could potentially be as effective in boosting your ATP production, i.e., thiamine repletion/supplementation therapy. Thiamine therapy can usually be done with oral supplements, though in hospital settings, thiamine/B1 drips are available and in use for multiple conditions.

There are multiple nutrients that are indispensable to ATP production, and NAD is surely one of them, but NAD is a derivative of more basic nutrients that are available from foods and OTC supplements, and NAD is farther downstream than, e.g., thiamine, in the ATP production pathway.

Like thiamine, magnesium is indispensable to normal ATP metabolism, and because the nutrients essential in metabolic pathways always work together, when one pursues thiamine supplementation, itś important also to increase oneś magnesium intake (with magnesium taurate being the most commonly advised version for this purpose).

Iḿ impressed that your naturopath sees that COVID damages our metabolism at quite basic levels, calling for treatments that address something as deep as mitochondrial function (which encompasses ATP synthesis), but after trying lots of downstream ¨energy-boosting¨ supplements (including choline), my non-response to these told me that I needed to go to a deeper deficiency or defect in order to get my energy up. That thiamine is essential not only in ATP production, but also in acetylcholine production, clued me in to the likelihood that any defect in my cellular thiamine levels, or in the way my thiamine was being metabolized, could be causing problems not limited to disrupted ATP production.

The work of orthomolecular therapy physician and researcher Derrick Lonsdale confirmed my suspicions, and then set forth, for me, the massive scale and diversity of dysfunction that thiamine deficiency/defect in the human body can cause.

In any case, if your naturopath is familiar with all this, and you decide to inquire about it with your naturopath, please consider showing your naturopath at least some sample chapters of Lonsdaleś crowning work titled Thiamine Deficiency Disease, Dysautonomia, and High-Calorie Malnutrition (written with Dr. Chandler Marrs). This work focuses on subacute thiamine deficiency and advocates thiamine supplementation in patients exhibiting the symptoms of B1 deficiency regardless of their thiamine lab values. Before his death, Dr. Lonsdale published an important article in which he posited that the COVID virus was involved in harming some component of the pathways of thiamine storage and deployment, and while no research on this existed at the time of this hypothesis, he cited as precedent the fact that many viruses other than COVID are well known to produce post-viral syndromes that involve energy deficits (e.g., Epstein-Barr chronic fatigue and myalgia).

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Thank you for your thorough reply. Without the background to completely understand the entirety of your response I have been considering seeking out a naturopath. My experience with COVID and the resulting Paxlovid treatment resulted in the almost complete resolution of my symptoms of Osteoporosis . Arthritis, etc. there is a complete discussion of this phenomenon on this website. We are all waving our arms and saying “Please look at this miracle” but no one in the medical field will say anything but “Hmmm”? Same response from the manufacturer.
Any ideas on this phenomenon?

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@wct30058

Thank you for your thorough reply. Without the background to completely understand the entirety of your response I have been considering seeking out a naturopath. My experience with COVID and the resulting Paxlovid treatment resulted in the almost complete resolution of my symptoms of Osteoporosis . Arthritis, etc. there is a complete discussion of this phenomenon on this website. We are all waving our arms and saying “Please look at this miracle” but no one in the medical field will say anything but “Hmmm”? Same response from the manufacturer.
Any ideas on this phenomenon?

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What an exciting development! I have not followed this phenomenon at all, and so haven´t encountered any literature that might directly try to explain it. The closest I may (?) have come is a report that asserted that the COVID virus seems to hijack (and thereby block) a particular site on the nicotinamide>NAD metabolic pathway, which assertion was then used to speculate that nicotine supplementation (via patch, gum, or lozenge) might dislodge (via replacement) virus particles from the hijacked site, restoring that site to normal function. (I think that this report is one of the bases for the growing popularity, among long-haulers, of nicotine ingestion/absorption (via lozenges, gums, patches) as a potentially viable COVID therapy.) Because my own understanding of the science at this level is limited, I can´t begin to even to guess intelligently how exposure to the COVID virus and Paxlovid would resolve pre-existing chronic disorders, but intuitively, I sense that the conditions in you that were resolved after COVID and Paxlovid might have involved metabolic pathway disturbances that were somehow corrected when/if the virus, and then the anti-viral, arrived on the scene. This scenario would suggest that the relevant pathways are still occupied by viral and/or anti-viral materials, and that all the while these materials have turned off the processes that were fueling your osteoporosis and arthritis, they are also causing unwanted long COVID symptoms. (Real scientists on this forum are surely cringing as they read this crude hypothesis, but at least this hypothesis may serve as a prompt for us to learn more about what the hoped-for correction via NAD therapy looks like at the cellular metabolic level.)

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@hrojzen0922

What an exciting development! I have not followed this phenomenon at all, and so haven´t encountered any literature that might directly try to explain it. The closest I may (?) have come is a report that asserted that the COVID virus seems to hijack (and thereby block) a particular site on the nicotinamide>NAD metabolic pathway, which assertion was then used to speculate that nicotine supplementation (via patch, gum, or lozenge) might dislodge (via replacement) virus particles from the hijacked site, restoring that site to normal function. (I think that this report is one of the bases for the growing popularity, among long-haulers, of nicotine ingestion/absorption (via lozenges, gums, patches) as a potentially viable COVID therapy.) Because my own understanding of the science at this level is limited, I can´t begin to even to guess intelligently how exposure to the COVID virus and Paxlovid would resolve pre-existing chronic disorders, but intuitively, I sense that the conditions in you that were resolved after COVID and Paxlovid might have involved metabolic pathway disturbances that were somehow corrected when/if the virus, and then the anti-viral, arrived on the scene. This scenario would suggest that the relevant pathways are still occupied by viral and/or anti-viral materials, and that all the while these materials have turned off the processes that were fueling your osteoporosis and arthritis, they are also causing unwanted long COVID symptoms. (Real scientists on this forum are surely cringing as they read this crude hypothesis, but at least this hypothesis may serve as a prompt for us to learn more about what the hoped-for correction via NAD therapy looks like at the cellular metabolic level.)

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I am aware and have pursued the nicotine therapy via both patches and gum without relief of symptoms and possibly a small boost of energy. I cannot speak to the mechanism that causes Paxlovid to bring such relief to so many individuals. Unfortunately the positive effects, energy, pain relief, return of more youthful feeling in body and overall wellbeing were short lived for myself and others. The phenomenon seemed to be related to the consumption of Paxlovid and not Covid but I could be mistaken. Paxlovid is comprised of two different antivirals, one being a med prescribed for aids. More information may be found on this forum via a search for Paxlovid. Why does it work for many but not others and is it a potential therapy for long COVID are my questions. There have been studies to determine if Paxlovid is safe for 15 and 30 days. That’s the first issue. I had no side effects but positive ones. I wish the medical professionals were interested.

REPLY
@wct30058

I am aware and have pursued the nicotine therapy via both patches and gum without relief of symptoms and possibly a small boost of energy. I cannot speak to the mechanism that causes Paxlovid to bring such relief to so many individuals. Unfortunately the positive effects, energy, pain relief, return of more youthful feeling in body and overall wellbeing were short lived for myself and others. The phenomenon seemed to be related to the consumption of Paxlovid and not Covid but I could be mistaken. Paxlovid is comprised of two different antivirals, one being a med prescribed for aids. More information may be found on this forum via a search for Paxlovid. Why does it work for many but not others and is it a potential therapy for long COVID are my questions. There have been studies to determine if Paxlovid is safe for 15 and 30 days. That’s the first issue. I had no side effects but positive ones. I wish the medical professionals were interested.

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Greatly appreciate all this additional information! I couldn´t agree more that what you and others have experienced (but not sufficiently to provide a long-term resolution of long COVID) must surely provide clues leading to solutions, based on these clues, that could indeed be lasting in effect. I routinely encounter eyes glazed over when I attempt to share with a physician what I am learning about my own favored therapies. My dentist, to her credit, is intrigued, and plans to try B1 with two members of her family who are experiencing long COVID, and she has even asked me to supply her with citations to research findings to support this approach, but that is the extent of the interest I encounter in establishment health care, so far. The silver lining here is that while we cannot self-direct a therapy based on an Rx antiviral or other restricted-access product, some of the promising therapies out there continue to be based on non-Rx nutraceuticals or OTC remedies. Yes, we take risks and leaps when we self-treat using these, but the serious damage done to my nervous and immune systems, over the past few years, via drugs prescribed by my physicians has to be factored in to the cost-benefit analyses we undertake.

REPLY
@hrojzen0922

If the objective of the NAD drip is to boost the pathway that ultimately supports mitochondrial ATP production (ATP being the primary source of energy across a very wide range of metabolic functions), I wonder whether your naturopath (a classical homeopath would not typically prescribe a nutraceutical drip) might consider something easier to pursue over a long period that could potentially be as effective in boosting your ATP production, i.e., thiamine repletion/supplementation therapy. Thiamine therapy can usually be done with oral supplements, though in hospital settings, thiamine/B1 drips are available and in use for multiple conditions.

There are multiple nutrients that are indispensable to ATP production, and NAD is surely one of them, but NAD is a derivative of more basic nutrients that are available from foods and OTC supplements, and NAD is farther downstream than, e.g., thiamine, in the ATP production pathway.

Like thiamine, magnesium is indispensable to normal ATP metabolism, and because the nutrients essential in metabolic pathways always work together, when one pursues thiamine supplementation, itś important also to increase oneś magnesium intake (with magnesium taurate being the most commonly advised version for this purpose).

Iḿ impressed that your naturopath sees that COVID damages our metabolism at quite basic levels, calling for treatments that address something as deep as mitochondrial function (which encompasses ATP synthesis), but after trying lots of downstream ¨energy-boosting¨ supplements (including choline), my non-response to these told me that I needed to go to a deeper deficiency or defect in order to get my energy up. That thiamine is essential not only in ATP production, but also in acetylcholine production, clued me in to the likelihood that any defect in my cellular thiamine levels, or in the way my thiamine was being metabolized, could be causing problems not limited to disrupted ATP production.

The work of orthomolecular therapy physician and researcher Derrick Lonsdale confirmed my suspicions, and then set forth, for me, the massive scale and diversity of dysfunction that thiamine deficiency/defect in the human body can cause.

In any case, if your naturopath is familiar with all this, and you decide to inquire about it with your naturopath, please consider showing your naturopath at least some sample chapters of Lonsdaleś crowning work titled Thiamine Deficiency Disease, Dysautonomia, and High-Calorie Malnutrition (written with Dr. Chandler Marrs). This work focuses on subacute thiamine deficiency and advocates thiamine supplementation in patients exhibiting the symptoms of B1 deficiency regardless of their thiamine lab values. Before his death, Dr. Lonsdale published an important article in which he posited that the COVID virus was involved in harming some component of the pathways of thiamine storage and deployment, and while no research on this existed at the time of this hypothesis, he cited as precedent the fact that many viruses other than COVID are well known to produce post-viral syndromes that involve energy deficits (e.g., Epstein-Barr chronic fatigue and myalgia).

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Just finished a month on the 600 mg of thiamine, with Mg ( and a host of other vits/ mins) …do you think I should have noticed any improvement (LC (postural hypotension with hypertension sitting is the symptom I’d like most to improve)? Have gone back to a BComplex with 110 mg Thiamin per pill. Tried getting to read the Lonsdale stuff but behind a paywall….so limited knowledge of protocol.

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A month on any B1 protocol is, for most, not likely to bring about very significant changes in any manifestation of dysautonomia, but some who take thiamine therapeutically can experience temporary aggravations of their conditions within that period if their presenting health issue and/or any additional health issues have been with them for a long while. These aggravations, aka paradoxical reactions, are believed to reflect a sort of resistance to absorbing thiamine that developed either before the dysautonomia set in or as a result of some metabolic disturbance caused by the dysautonomia. Adverse reactions to particular types of thiamine are also well recognized. Some develop side effects from B1 HCl or mononitrate, or to benfotiamine, e.g. To minimize aggravations and side effects, all prevailing protocols ad use building one's thiamine dose up gradually. I am on my third month of thiamine therapy, and I have not yet come close to a total of 600 mg of combined B1 sources yet. Along the way, I have had to abandon HCl and greatly reduce any intake of benfotiamine. And now I make sure to make allithiamine (sourced directly from garlic) a significant portion of my daily dose. Moreover, some people never need no more than 100 mg of TTFD alone in order to see dramatic improvements. What all this means is that we have to create our own, individualized protocols through trial and error. If you would like to roll back your process now in order to follow the slow increase method, this can also be an opportunity for you to experiment with all the sources of oral thiamine available OTC. Dr. Lonsdale became strongly committed to TTFD (synthesized originally in Japan, where Beriberi disease was first identified), over the course of his work, after he learned of its superior availability. He knew that because dysautonomia always includes metabolic pathway disruptions in the brain's hypothalamus, penetration of the blood-brain barrier was going to be essential if thiamine was to reverse dysautonomia. I don't have POTS, but I do have multiple other disorders that are well known potential features of dysautonomia, and so I started my own protocol with HCl ans mononitrate, with the goal of later adding TTFD and allithismine (the natural source of TTFD). Functional medicine clinical Elliot Overton suggests that we experiment with combinations of B1 sources, since some patients seem to increase overall absorption and progress that way. So my own plan is soon to make TTFD (synthetic B1) the core of my regimen, with smaller amounts of allithismine, benfotiamine, and mononitrate as the cushion around that core, all of which are always accompanied by Mg Taurate, Potassium Bicarbonate and a medium-stength B Complex (in which B1 comes as 25 mg or less of mononitrate). These months in, my disabling post-COVID nasal breathing obstruction is beginning to subside. I intend to remain on B1 therapy for the rest of life, moreover, since I have had multiple dysautonomia symptoms since childhood.

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Pls forgive multiple typos in my proceeding comment, which I generated on my phone. Corrections: ad use = advise
superior availability = superior bioavailability

Never need no more = never need more

HCl ans = HCl and

allithismine = allithiamine

clinical Elliot = clinician Elliot

These months in = Three months in

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@hrojzen0922

Pls forgive multiple typos in my proceeding comment, which I generated on my phone. Corrections: ad use = advise
superior availability = superior bioavailability

Never need no more = never need more

HCl ans = HCl and

allithismine = allithiamine

clinical Elliot = clinician Elliot

These months in = Three months in

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Tapping the three dots at the bottom (adjacent to response icons) allows you to edit your posts. FYI I use it a lot!

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So appreciate this guidance, but when I click the three dots, here are the only options I get:

Copy link to clipboard
Bookmark
Report Comment

Iĺl try henceforth to compose longer comments/replies only on my laptop.

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