When to get second opinion-recurrence possible?

Posted by rion @rion, Mar 12 10:22pm

Hi, I'm new here. I had papillary carcinoma in the 90s with a lobectomy. Fifteen years later I had total thyroidectomy for pap/follicular variant, followed by RAI 131 remnant ablation. Now I have a current ultrasound where a suspicious node was found (level 1B/submandibular, loss of fatty hilum, cortical thickening, 1.2cm x .5cmx1.2cm. My current Endo will not order a fine needle biopsy, wants me to have 3 CT scans w/wo contrast, and states they don't expect to order a biopsy. And the CT scans are about a month out on the schedule at my provider. It's already been a month and I am trying to get a second opinion, but can't be seen by that endo center until the end of June. Has anyone dealt with this before? I have not. In the first two surgeries, I was given an ultrasound, needle biopsy then surgery (and possible ct scan(s) near surgery for mapping. I just don't remember all the issues going back 30 years. Appreciate anyone sharing with me. I'm aware that a metastasis that high up in the neck would be very rare, but I've read case studies where recurrence can even manifest in the jaw bone or oral cavity.

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Sounds very stressful! If the CT scans are about a month out, maybe your doctor can call them and get you seen sooner…… sometimes they seem to keep spaces for emergencies so your doctor might be able to call and arrange an earlier appt. If not, maybe a second opinion at another facility would help. I don’t know the benefits of CT with dye all the time… sometimes they say it isn’t necessary but I don’t know why. Maybe you can ask your doctor why he isn’t ordering the test with dye so you will know his reasoning. Every procedure has pros and cons, maybe the dye changes or does something that your doctor does not want. The waiting is very stressful! Good luck!

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Thanks for your reply @koh ! I've been a little wigged out for sure. The Endo wants both with dye, and without. I am stating a new PCP next week (haven't had one in years - just Endocrinology) and he may look at my reports and help me navigate. Glad I decided to join this forum, because this stuff is always frustrating and stressful when it rears its ugly head. As much as I hate to do it, I plan to transition to another Endocrinolgist soon. There have been several red flags with my current one over the last year. Best of luck to you and I'll be checking back in soon.

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@rion

Thanks for your reply @koh ! I've been a little wigged out for sure. The Endo wants both with dye, and without. I am stating a new PCP next week (haven't had one in years - just Endocrinology) and he may look at my reports and help me navigate. Glad I decided to join this forum, because this stuff is always frustrating and stressful when it rears its ugly head. As much as I hate to do it, I plan to transition to another Endocrinolgist soon. There have been several red flags with my current one over the last year. Best of luck to you and I'll be checking back in soon.

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I have had follicular ( Huertyle cell) as well.
My endo never did a biopsy in any of times I had a recurrence.
He felt that it was not a reliable indicator for the follicular carcinoma and that other factors would determine the need for treatment. I also have kidney cancer. I have had many CTs and MRIs that are without contrast and with contrast. They are usually done all at once... at least in my experience. They start an I.V. then they scan without the contrast , then administer the contrast and scan again. It doubles the time for me in mri's , especially as I have had a spread to my brain early on.
The different perspectives they get with and without contrast are helpful. Lots of advancement and knowledge grown in the 30 plus years since my first diagnosis .

I'm wondering. . . Did you ask your endo why he didn't want to do the biopsy ?
Or why he wanted both scans?

I have had to learn to ask those questions, to show them I want to understand as much as possible their thought process. I also try very hard to be respectful and not challenge them, but just try to understand to be part of the decisions. It also reduced my stress and concerns afterwards .

If you didn't ask him those questions, perhaps you could still do so ? Phone call? email?

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@rion, getting a second opinion has been shown to be beneficial. Mayo Clinic researchers did this study a few years ago.
- Generally Speaking: Seeking Second Opinions
https://connect.mayoclinic.org/blog/cancer-education-center/newsfeed-post/seeking-second-opinions/

Have you met with your PCP yet to discuss further or is the appointment upcoming?

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@colleenyoung I appreciate the response and will read the article you linked to. I haven't had a PCP for years, and instead address acute issues at urgent care centers (I hardly ever have any other issues). My past PCPs usually hear 'cancer' and then all discussions are pretty much referred back to endocrinology. I have to say I resent the current state of medicine in my area.

My endocrinologist refused to order an FNA citing she needed to order more imaging (CT scans) and that US was unreliable. So, I got neck and chest CT scans w/wo contrast, and she still refused. The US, and neck CT scans both mention soft tissue or FNA could be done. Doesn't say things look like an emergency, but says they are conspicuous or suspicious. On the chest CT scans, a lung nodule was found that wasn't there a couple years ago, as well as an indeterminate liver lesion 2.3cm x 3.1cm. So one radiologist found in the neck a conspicuous number of new lymph nodes that weren't there two years back (9) in addition to a mandibular node with cortical thickening and no fatty hilum. His report states that even though it is less likely, low-grade lymphoproliferative process could be present and soft tissue sampling could be done as indicated, especially with the 1B node and my history. The US report identified the characteristics of the 1B node. And the third report states the liver lesion needs a four-phase MRI.

Sorry for the long background there, but my doctor bypassed all three radiologists and went to a fourth radiologist to backup her opinion, that all this should simply be followed with future scans (except the liver which is not in her lane- so I have a gastroenterologist appointment this upcoming week).

When I followed with MD Anderson, they would have done the FNA at the time of US, if suspicious nodes were found. And they found several small granulomas in my thyroid bed over the years, but never anything like I have now. It's pretty disappointing. I can't even get into IU Endocrinology until the end of June, but it probably isn't a huge deal since thyroid stuff often grows slowly (if it is persistent/metastatic disease). I believe the chances of thyroid to liver metastasis is less tham 1% likely, and usually the 1B location wouldn't be likely, but they still can go there according to research cases I've read. I will absolutely dump my endocrinologist as soon as I have a new one to keep my meds up to date, but I wanted input from others. I'm 61 now, and a distant metastasis could take me out. With any luck the liver issue will be just an atypical hemangioma, or less, but I've watched just enough radiology lectures and examples to fear the worst-lol. I have never had a doctor so resistant to an FNA.

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@lbrockme

I have had follicular ( Huertyle cell) as well.
My endo never did a biopsy in any of times I had a recurrence.
He felt that it was not a reliable indicator for the follicular carcinoma and that other factors would determine the need for treatment. I also have kidney cancer. I have had many CTs and MRIs that are without contrast and with contrast. They are usually done all at once... at least in my experience. They start an I.V. then they scan without the contrast , then administer the contrast and scan again. It doubles the time for me in mri's , especially as I have had a spread to my brain early on.
The different perspectives they get with and without contrast are helpful. Lots of advancement and knowledge grown in the 30 plus years since my first diagnosis .

I'm wondering. . . Did you ask your endo why he didn't want to do the biopsy ?
Or why he wanted both scans?

I have had to learn to ask those questions, to show them I want to understand as much as possible their thought process. I also try very hard to be respectful and not challenge them, but just try to understand to be part of the decisions. It also reduced my stress and concerns afterwards .

If you didn't ask him those questions, perhaps you could still do so ? Phone call? email?

Jump to this post

Thank @lbrockme. Yes, I have stated to her twice that I was uncomfortable with the approach. First she wouldn't order based on the report until she could see the US image disk. Then when she did read the images, she said she wanted to see CT scan before making a decision and "if" they showed any concern she would readdress. Then the CT scans were done w/wo contrast and indicated possible lymphoproliferative process in the neck, a new lung nodule and an indeterminate liver lesion. So I approached her again and stated I feel that an FNA is indicated given my history, and the above. She just refuses to do anything else at this point. The last thyroid cancer occurrence involved lymphovascular invasion and extrathyroidal extension/focally adherent to skeletal muscle. A distant metastasis can significantly reduce survivor odds, as far as I understand. MD Anderson still does FNA for appropriate thyroid nodules and nodes, and perhaps they also wouldn't have done it at this point. But I believe it's more likely that they would have by now, just based on the number of years I was in their survivorship program.

I appreciate your response and am trying not to become overly dramatic about my case. I hope you are doing well!

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I am doing well, thank you.
It sounds like you are feeling a lack of confidence in your doctor. A second opinion might be really reassuring for you.
Wishing you well

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