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BCR Analyzation; < Age 60

Prostate Cancer | Last Active: Feb 27 3:58pm | Replies (25)

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@kujhawk1978

My two cents, fellow member of this darn club, layman, 10 years...

The question to consider asking is:

Would waiting to image change the treatment plan?
Would waiting to image change my risk, spread of my PCa.

Generally, SRT earlier is better...here's my question:

When you say SRT, do you mean to the prostate bed only or are you including whole PLN and perhaps short term ADT, say six-twelve months. I ask, because SRT to the prostate bed only is generally not the standard of care for BCR today. I would read through the NCCN guidelines...

You indicate your pathology report said GS 3+4 which puts you in Grade Group 2..

In recent years, healthcare providers have realized that the Gleason score might not always be the best way to grade PCa. For instance, not all cancers with a GS of 7 are the same. Cancers with more grade 3 areas (3 + 4 = 7 GS) are less likely to grow and spread than cancers with more grade 4 areas (4 + 3 = 7 GS). Likewise, Gleason score 8 cancers are less likely to grow and spread than cancers with a GS of 9 or 10.
Based on these differences, healthcare providers have started to use a newer system that breaks up PCas into 5 grade groups:
• Grade group 1 = Gleason 6 (or less)
• Grade group 2 = Gleason 3 + 4 = 7
• Grade group 3 = Gleason 4 + 3 = 7
• Grade group 4 = Gleason 8
• Grade group 5 = Gleason 9 or 10

As to your urologist statement that you are young and may experience radiation toxicity, he is not wrong, but...I'm going to throw the BS penalty flag here. Attached is my clinical history. I've had radiation treatment three different times over my 10 years, 69 total treatments, nada...why, advances in imagery, treatment planning software and delivery. I've said this before I've sat down with my radiologist, the same one during my journey, she's shown me the software, the hardware, it's pretty impressive.

ADT is not "putting a bandaid on things," do a literature search on micro-metastatic PCa, just because imaging doesn't see it, doesn't mean it's not there!

There are divergent views on curing PCa once it's spread, some say it's possible, others say no, you manage it as a chronic disease. In my case, definitely the latter. When I had my BCR in December 2015, my urologist and radiologist wanted to do SRT to the prostate bed, the SOC. I asked about data emerging from CTs and from Mayo that more often than not, the PCa had spread beyond the prostate bed after surgery and was in the PLNs, therefore SRT should include the PLNs and shorty term ADT. I said given my GS and short time to BCR, should we do that, their answer, no, there wasn't long term data to support that. Well, 90 days after competing my SRT, my radiologist turnd from her screen after seeing my PSA results and said "that didn't work, what do you want to do next! As you can see from my chart, it was in the PLNs, we just didn't have the imaging at that time to see it, today we do! I assure you, that was the last time I let my medical team talk me out of a treatment decision!

So, yes, your PSA does seem to indicate BCR, a treatment decision may be needed, question is, when to pull the trigger and with what. The good news, you have choices, many, the "not so good news, you have choices, many...!

Here's a interesting and possibly relevant study - https://www.urotoday.com/conference-highlights/asco-gu-2023/asco-gu-2023-prostate-cancer/142438-asco-gu-2023-tps402-phase-iii-study-of-local-or-systemic-therapy-intensification-directed-by-pet-in-prostate-cancer-patients-with-post-prostatectomy-biochemical-recurrence-indicate-ec?utm_source=newsletter_12613&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=design-access-and-consensus-criteria-in-gu-clinical-trials

Kevin

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Replies to "My two cents, fellow member of this darn club, layman, 10 years... The question to consider..."

Thank you for your thorough and detailed response, Kevin. Very much appreciated. You have been through a lot. Stay strong. Love the BS Flag statement 😊. I viewed the image, EXCELLENT. I also had Dr. Montgomery. I’m curious as to who came up with the chart. I have an IT background so great interest.

I note the BCR at .3 vs. .2 so wondering about that. I keep reading that 2+ consecutive PSA’s over .2 most Drs. consider BCR vs .3 It appears your radiation was started at .7

I have read a very common place of BCR is in the bladder neck as well as the back of the bladder itself. I wonder if a whole Pelvic Radiation includes those areas, albeit I do believe it would include pelvic lymph nodes. Easy enough to find the answer too.

My post Radical Prostatectomy Urologist is different than my original. The later, pioneered Perineal Prostatectomy (of which I never heard about prior to my prostatectomy; I had the DaVinci) In general, he seems to be a very non-conventional thinker.

He states that Radiation Toxicity almost always presents itself 15-20 years later. To me, Radiation Toxicity is subjective. In other words, not exactly sure what it means to those affected so not quite sure how to interpret. He seems to lean towards waiting to see the cancer via imaging. I have mixed feelings on this because my belief is if f you wait too long, you miss the opportunity of cure via radiation and/or hormone therapy as well as the risk of metastasis.

I sure wish the PSMA scan was more accurate with a lower PSA score because it would seem you could zero in on the area of BCR, if detected. Albeit the downfall is it may not detect “everything” and a whole Pelvis Radiation would have a better chance of coverage.

Re: Hormone Therapy, I wonder if it suppresses or actually eradicates. If it suppresses only, then I see the benefit of using it along with radiation. However, if the goal is to “see” the disease via advanced imaging, like a PSMA, I would lean towards not using in prior too, hence the band aid comment.

It really is a lot to think about. If I could find a study that compares the (2) as it relates to my Gleason and post pathology report, it may benefit in decision making. I’m definitely seeking a 2nd and possibly 3rd opinion and look forward to further comments from anyone. Thanks again.